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Martina, Caster, trans women athletes, and a Swiss cyclist

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    #26
    It's very much like the bathroom "problem" at its core.

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      #27
      Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
      But "in theory" a cis-male athlete could already have done this at any point in the last couple of decades, and they haven't. So why penalise real people in order to create a solution to a currently non-existent problem?
      Isn't the problem that there is already a rule in place re testosterone levels (and that there's a fear that the reduced threshold could effectively exclude Caster)? I thought it was mentioned up-thread that the IAAF had reduced or were reducing the acceptable testosterone levels for their interpretation of who's allowed to compete in women's competition? Assuming the above post is correct the issue becomes whether the testosterone threshold should be removed

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        #28
        The Spanish Paralympic Basketball Team cheated in a similar way. But this was seen more of indictment of their sportsmanship than a fundamental flaw in the existence of Paralympic Basketball.

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          #29
          Fuck

          https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48102479

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            #30
            An IAAF's expert witness at the CAS court case has published a defence of the """science""" behind the Semanya decision - on alt-right, white supremacist, pro-eugenics website quillette. which probably tells you more about the Caster Semanya case than any amount of patient unpicking of the flimsy science behind the CAS decision.

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              #31
              https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48504205

              A Swiss Court has suspended the IAAF ruling stating that Caster Semanya is the only athlete forced to take drugs in order to compete,

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                #32
                The IAAF can play judicial Stalingrad, but Caster will win this at every higher instance.

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                  #33
                  Except at CAS. Which are above the IAAF, and whose ruling was suspended yesterday.

                  The appeal is presumably only possible on whether CAS erred in Swiss law, right? The basic facts are not up for judgement again.

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                    #34
                    Suspension of the ruling overturned. Baring another court decision (the appeal is still pending, the decision reversed was an interim one over whether the IAAFs rules should apply in the meantime), Semanya won't be at the Worlds.

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                      #35
                      This will end up in the human rights courts. And when Caster wins in the final instance, I hope she'll sue the shit out of the IAAF..

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                        #36
                        https://twitter.com/AfricaFactsZone/status/1410880763290132481?s=19

                        I couldn't find a suitable place for this but the race element in this appears really strong.

                        That's five African women withdrawn now.

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                          #37
                          This is the most detailed refutation I have found of the 2019 CAS decision, particularly the decision to penalize 46 XY athletes (but not high testosterone 46 XX) on unproven grounds that rely on outdated understandings of the rigidity of sex boundaries (and imposing gender assumptions on supposedly objective biological science):

                          https://theconversation.com/ten-ethi...n-sport-116448

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                            #38
                            Today's article by Sean Ingle is remarkably biased in its presentation of the "DSD" debate:

                            https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...hletics-zagreb

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                              #39
                              That could be said of everything Ingle has produced on the subject

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                                #40
                                https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/58732146

                                To pick one element of that, I’m not seeing how Open categories working if sports were trying to run those in parallel to the current gendered ones. And only having an Open category in non-elite sport is problematic in its own way, as it would be discouraging (or rather not encouraging) to some females from participating.
                                Last edited by Janik; 30-09-2021, 07:29.

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                                  #41
                                  The line that "Transgender people can be safely included in mens sports" sounds like absolute dogshit to me, and a weaselly way of avoiding the question of the damage of pushing women to compete as men, of telling them they're not like other women. The social and physical damage to both the individual who wants to compete in the sport but now is not doing exercise, and to society as a whole in consciously categorising some women as "not women, really".

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                                    #42
                                    The line about safety is also weaselly shit. They talk about the "average woman compared with the average transgender woman or non-binary person registered male at birth" yet generally the people competing in, say, a rugby scrum are not "average". And safety would be just as much an issue if you have a 4 ft 9, 80lb woman and a 6 ft 2, 240lb woman in the same scrum, regardless of their "registered gender at birth".

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                                      #43
                                      Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
                                      The line that "Transgender people can be safely included in mens sports" sounds like absolute dogshit to me, and a weaselly way of avoiding the question of the damage of pushing women to compete as men, of telling them they're not like other women.
                                      That is referring to trans men, SB. But exactly why it is safe for a trans man, who wouldn't have been through puberty as male and therefore won't have got the residual benefits this commission has decided that the science apparently shows, to play in amongst cis-men, whilst a trans-woman playing with cis-women is risky, is a bit of a logical hole.

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                                        #44
                                        The key finding for me is Competitive fairness cannot be reconciled with self-identification into the female category in gender-affected sport.
                                        That is heading back towards a biological determination of sex.

                                        From the noises coming from the IOC, I suspect they are headed down the same path, somewhat against their will. To pick some previous quotes from Dr Richard Budgett (who the BBC report says is their medical and science director), just to show where his heart lies "If you don’t want to take any risks at all that anyone might have an advantage, then you just stop everybody. If you are prepared to extrapolate from the evidence there is, and consider the fact the have been no openly transgender women at the top level until now, I think the threat to women’s sport has probably been overstated." and "The other important thing to remember is that trans women are women. You have got to include all women if you possibly can". And yet he very recently said "Transgender women are women. But we also have to separate gender from eligibility. And eligibility needs to be sport-specific in order to have this fair and meaningful competition at all levels, but especially at the elite level where the stakes are that much higher." which I think implies the direction the IOC are going to go.

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                                          #45
                                          This looks like straightforward transmisogyny. That BBC link is a lot less clear and also quotes a hate group.

                                          https://twitter.com/cj_bellwether/status/1443578533960302595

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                                            #46
                                            https://twitter.com/katyjon/status/1553672123142610946?t=Aq_kInN19ueQ3dpuZBbHxQ&s=19

                                            More women banned from Olympic sports, nothing to do with them being WoC, of course not.

                                            Sharron Davies must be loving this.

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                                              #47
                                              The fucking replies.

                                              Mboma is entered to run the 200m in the Commonwealths (although she's recovering from injury) so she might get more shit from transphobes over the next fortnight (the ban applies to 400m up to 1500m but I imagine Coe et al would like to expand that).
                                              Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 01-08-2022, 01:46.

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                                                #48
                                                OK, as far as I'm concerned Mboma and Masilingi are the 400m champions by default. Huge asterisk by whoever wins that while they're banned.

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                                                  #49
                                                  ECHR finds Caster Semenya was discriinated against by World Athletics. Again, sorry for twitter link, it's what i found.

                                                  https://twitter.com/ECHR_CEDH/status...78173670572034

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                                                    #50
                                                    Semenya should sue those bastards for everything they have. There must be loads of grounds. Loss of earnings, damage to reputation, personal suffering etc.

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