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Bands with reputations lessened by subsequent solo careers

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    #51
    Barney only stepped in because Hooky's singing on the early post-JD sessions was a disaster.

    I think Curtis took a lot from Jim Morrison but adds much more emotion. There's a "less is more" with Curtis. His stage presence as a vocalist was hugely charismatic, which neither Hooky nor Barney had as vocalists (as opposed to as musicians).

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      #52
      ...nor indeed as lyricists. Joy Division were all about Ian C's charisma, both on and offstage.

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        #53
        Thing is, IC didn't try to 'sing', per se. He did his own type of vocal thing. Like MES. Barney, though, 'sing-sings' like you or I would try to do in the shower. IC's one exception might be LWTUA, in which he apparently tried out a little 'Sinatra thing'.
        Last edited by WOM; 21-01-2019, 17:54.

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          #54
          I think that was Hannett's idea. Ian C wasn't blessed with the most tuneful of voices, but he made the words his own. Most of his recordings sound as though he's speaking to us directly - which clearly he was.

          Barney doesn't (or didn't) so much sing as chant in the early NO days. His voice improved marginally over the years, but the lyrics never progressed much beyond 'I love you more than you love me' because, according to him, it 'didn't matter'. And sales suggest that he was right.

          (Actually, Ian Curtis is one of the few impressions I can do better than most people I know. Ventriloquist puppet Lord Charles is another.)

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            #55
            Originally posted by Jah Womble View Post

            (Actually, Ian Curtis is one of the few impressions I can do better than most people I know. Ventriloquist puppet Lord Charles is another.)
            Well, there's a night out.

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              #56
              Indeed. It didn't really work at my niece's christening, that's for sure.

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                #57
                Originally posted by WOM View Post
                Hmmm. Is that the case with Eurythmics? I'm not sure if their stock has moved up or down much at all. Neither has set the world on fire with their solo / subsequent efforts, although both seem to earn fair critical praise and (one assumes a loyal fan base, too).

                The Police get a pass from me. Sting's not a racist or anything; just insufferable. Morrissey certainly tarnishes The Smith's image to a degree, but their music still holds up.
                It's sort of weird with The Smiths. I do wonder if there's anything Morrissey can do to make them beyond the pale.

                There seems to be general acceptance that anyone who listens to Skrewdriver's first record is probably a wrong 'un. Meanwhile Crisis' legacy - in spawning crypto nazi (with the crypto increasingly redundant) neofolk scene - Death In June, Sol Invictus etc - hasn't really seemed to impact their popularity - at least, until they reformed a few years back.

                Maybe if the Smiths reformed - with Morrissey now an open fascist - I guess that might change things - as it did for Crisis.

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                  #58
                  For me with Morrissey I had already compartmentalised - the callow shy teenager spoken of and to in his early songs, was superseded by the knowing arch "clever" lyricist in later Smiths records, and then by increasingly tired and ineffective attempts to recapture the secret of his success in his solo career. So, for me, early Smiths was always the stuff I loved. The first LP, Hatful of Hollow and Meat is Murder in particular. The Queen is Dead was sort of half good, and after that I felt he'd lost his ability to relate to shy awkward teenage boys like me - understandably to an extent because he was now an international star. So, further compartmentalising out racist Morrissey was fairly easy because I'd already separated off what I loved about his early work anyway. The man is obviously and objectively an utter cunt, but I can't see myself ever falling out of love with What She Said, or Hand in Glove, or How Soon is Now

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                    #59
                    Right with you there ad hoc.

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                      #60
                      Originally posted by Jah Womble View Post
                      Indeed. It didn't really work at my niece's christening, that's for sure.
                      Funerals might be a good earner, though.

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                        #61
                        Originally posted by Bizarre Löw Triangle View Post

                        It's sort of weird with The Smiths. I do wonder if there's anything Morrissey can do to make them beyond the pale.

                        There seems to be general acceptance that anyone who listens to Skrewdriver's first record is probably a wrong 'un. Meanwhile Crisis' legacy - in spawning crypto nazi (with the crypto increasingly redundant) neofolk scene - Death In June, Sol Invictus etc - hasn't really seemed to impact their popularity - at least, until they reformed a few years back.

                        Maybe if the Smiths reformed - with Morrissey now an open fascist - I guess that might change things - as it did for Crisis.
                        I think his open fascism has destroyed even the very slim chance of a reunion. It would make the Smiths' entire legacy toxic in a way that it has currently managed to avoid, and Marr surely knows this.

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                          #62
                          Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                          For me with Morrissey I had already compartmentalised - the callow shy teenager spoken of and to in his early songs, was superseded by the knowing arch "clever" lyricist in later Smiths records, and then by increasingly tired and ineffective attempts to recapture the secret of his success in his solo career. So, for me, early Smiths was always the stuff I loved. The first LP, Hatful of Hollow and Meat is Murder in particular. The Queen is Dead was sort of half good, and after that I felt he'd lost his ability to relate to shy awkward teenage boys like me - understandably to an extent because he was now an international star. So, further compartmentalising out racist Morrissey was fairly easy because I'd already separated off what I loved about his early work anyway. The man is obviously and objectively an utter cunt, but I can't see myself ever falling out of love with What She Said, or Hand in Glove, or How Soon is Now
                          Awesome post. Yes, there were definitely at least two Smiths phases and the separation is probably the period between Meat Is Murder* and The Queen Is Dead, which not coincidentally is also the period that he started to claim you could only get daytime radio play and TOTP appearances if you black - a transparent racist lie that should have killed his career right there, but he was given a free pass because:

                          a) I think the white indie scene was just far more politically naive at that point
                          b) The music press needed his face on the cover
                          c) It was pre-Public Enemy's first album, the event that shifted perception of racism permanently in the music press and elsewhere.

                          *That doesn't mean there was no racism at all before Meat Is Murder ("all reggae is vile" was 1984 Xmas NME edition IIRC) but it was sufficiently veiled to escape notice unless you already had the racial awareness that came later. I suspect that 2Tone fans, if they noticed Morrissey at all, would have been among the first to suss it. OTOH 2Tone did not really seem to tolerate shy teenage males, despite Hall being very shy himself.
                          Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 22-01-2019, 12:17.

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                            #63
                            'All reggae is vile' is 'suspect' rather than 'racist', IMO.

                            Dismissing an entire genre is usually the work of the deeply intolerant, however.

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                              #64
                              Depends on the grounds for dismissing it. Irrational dislike of Rastafarians?

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                                #65
                                Or just a random throwaway comment that's been held up like a manifesto or a tattoo. I think 'traditional blues' is perhaps the most repetitive, dead-end music that keeps getting churned out by the truckload. Doesn't mean I'm racist. I just think it's a derivative genre that was played out 50 years ago.

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                                  #66
                                  I've always wondered about the "All reggae is vile" quote. I don't like reggae* - although I liked ragga, oddly - but I wonder if the difference is I wouldn't call it vile ( I know it is probably my issue), he has said enough openly racist stuff since that you just see that quote in that context now and, importantly, I am not a racist. I think that dismissing a whole genre just means that you are intolerant of that genre - or, at least, knowingly out of touch with it. For instance, there have been enough people who say that they hate heavy metal which, on one hand, seems ridiculous to me given the diversity of music under that banner (I am conscious many would say the same to me about reggae) and, on the other hand, I can sort of see why people would say it from the outside.

                                  *anyone who knows my son's name will appreciate the irony of that.

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                                    #67
                                    Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                                    The man is obviously and objectively an utter cunt, but I can't see myself ever falling out of love with What She Said, or Hand in Glove, or How Soon is Now

                                    Johnny Marr on how he wrote How Soon Is Now:


                                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErizXxfT4dg



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                                      #68
                                      If I weren’t going out I’d jump up and down like Mrs Doyle and excitedly guess Bored’s son’s name, so I’ll stick to one-

                                      Haile Selassie-I..?

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                                        #69
                                        It's Red Stripe, but I cheated, since we're friends on Facebook...

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                                          #70
                                          Steel Pulse? Which does sound like the kind of name a rock musician would give his son...

                                          Originally posted by Bordeaux Education View Post
                                          ...but I wonder if the difference is I wouldn't call it vile...
                                          Well, that's the potential difference as regards what WOM said: I find a lot of modern pop and R&B bland, repetitive and unambitious in the extreme, but would stop short of dismissing entire genres as 'vile'. Simply put, neither especially impinges on my life - and neither is marketed at me anyway. (I find the way that the entire UK industry seems to have been swallowed up by such genres a tad concerning, but that's a whole different debate.)

                                          I'm no apologist for how he's behaved in recent years, but, to be honest, 'vile' is exactly the kind of term Morrissey would have used back then - he also used it to dismiss music videos in the same interview. You can pretty much picture the younger version throwing his head back in faux-boredom at the whole procedure as he utters it.

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                                            #71
                                            Obviously it's Roy. But I'm not sure which vowel precedes it. Probably E- these days...

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                                              #72
                                              Originally posted by Jah Womble View Post
                                              (Actually, Ian Curtis is one of the few impressions I can do better than most people I know. Ventriloquist puppet Lord Charles is another.)
                                              Do you ever combine the two? I'd pay good money to hear Lord Charles' version of "Decades".

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                                                #73
                                                When I read the Curtis/Charles combo out to Ms Felicity (equally tickled by it), she said 'well i suppose they both danced the same'!

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                                                  #74
                                                  Ian C suspended by strings might be a touch insensitive, however.

                                                  Originally posted by treibeis View Post
                                                  Do you ever combine the two? I'd pay good money to hear Lord Charles' version of "Decades".
                                                  "Here are the young men, Ray-mond! But where have they been? You silly aaarse!"

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                                                    #75
                                                    Originally posted by Bordeaux Education View Post
                                                    I've always wondered about the "All reggae is vile" quote. I don't like reggae* - although I liked ragga, oddly - but I wonder if the difference is I wouldn't call it vile ( I know it is probably my issue), he has said enough openly racist stuff since that you just see that quote in that context now and, importantly, I am not a racist. I think that dismissing a whole genre just means that you are intolerant of that genre - or, at least, knowingly out of touch with it. For instance, there have been enough people who say that they hate heavy metal which, on one hand, seems ridiculous to me given the diversity of music under that banner (I am conscious many would say the same to me about reggae) and, on the other hand, I can sort of see why people would say it from the outside.

                                                    *anyone who knows my son's name will appreciate the irony of that.
                                                    I think "all reggae is vile" and "all heavy metal is vile" are qualitatively different. But heavy metal is a predominantly white genre which has never had to struggle for legitimacy.

                                                    Morrissey's comments on reggae belong in the same category of Larkin's loathing of modern jazz or Dan Quale denouncing rap music or the denunciations that accompany any newly emergent black subculture - grime, bashment, trap, drill. That is, they're fundamentally rooted in anti-blackness and are not just expressions of personal taste, but of condemning an entire black youth culture as degenerate - rejecting the threat of black innovation and creativity.

                                                    I'm not saying that you have to like every genre of music, but blanket dismissals of entire genres of black music (especially new genres) - especially if you're suggesting it's repugnant or morally outrageous (rather than like, not your cup of tea) ties into racist tropes with along history.

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