The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

[G-Man]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

Why would anyone dispute that the Clash were rock & roll?

Excellent post by SR, by the way. I wish I could have stated my case as eloquently and perceptively as he did.

[Andy C]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

invert it

So they're the greatest r'n'r band by being the opposite of r'n'r?

The Smiths, uniquely, made themselves a national/global rallying point for real outsiders.

They had a certain popularity, but this claim of universality is more than hyperbolic.

3) This is elementary and obvious, and I dunno why I even have to spell it out, but in musical terms The Smiths were literally a rock'n'roll band in the old-fashioned, 1950s/early 1960s sense. Pretty much a rockabilly band, half the time. Listen to "Shakespeare's Sister" or "Nowhere Fast" or "Handsome Devil" or "Miserable Lie" or "Rusholme Ruffians" or "London" or "What She Said". How are they not a rock'n'roll band?

Yeah, right. And The Police were the greatest reggae act the world has ever seen.

[Spearmint Rhino]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

Andy C wrote:

invert it

So they're the greatest r'n'r band by being the opposite of r'n'r?

Yeah.

Andy C wrote:

The Smiths, uniquely, made themselves a national/global rallying point for real outsiders.

They had a certain popularity, but this claim of universality is more than hyperbolic.

The 'global' aspect didn't really happen till later on, when they posthumously became a cult thing among successive generations of Anglophiles in other countries. But I stand by the 'national' part all day long. If you were an alienated, lonely British teenager between '83-'87, The Smiths felt like a fucking crusade. If you weren't an alienated, lonely British teenager between '83-'87, I can see how this might make you shrug with bemusement. But trust me on this.

Andy C wrote:

3) This is elementary and obvious, and I dunno why I even have to spell it out, but in musical terms The Smiths were literally a rock'n'roll band in the old-fashioned, 1950s/early 1960s sense. Pretty much a rockabilly band, half the time. Listen to "Shakespeare's Sister" or "Nowhere Fast" or "Handsome Devil" or "Miserable Lie" or "Rusholme Ruffians" or "London" or "What She Said". How are they not a rock'n'roll band?

Yeah, right. And The Police were the greatest reggae act the world has ever seen.

My third point wasn't intended to prove that they are the greatest, merely that they qualify as a rock'n'roll band in the most literal and traditional sense of playing rock'n'roll music. Whether you think they're a rubbish one is down to personal taste.

[Spearmint Rhino]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

historyman wrote:

Spearmint Rhino wrote:

3) This is elementary and obvious, and I dunno why I even have to spell it out, but in musical terms The Smiths were literally a rock'n'roll band in the old-fashioned, 1950s/early 1960s sense. Pretty much a rockabilly band, half the time. Listen to "Shakespeare's Sister" or "Nowhere Fast" or "Handsome Devil" or "Miserable Lie" or "Rusholme Ruffians" or "London" or "What She Said". How are they not a rock'n'roll band?

Surely by that definiton then, The Clash circa 79/80 would be a rock 'n' roll band? They had a hell of a lot more influence globally than The Smiths ever did.

Yes, of course The Clash were a rock'n'roll band. Who ever said they weren't? In fact, The Clash were exactly what I had in mind with the bit "...all played out, a deadening leather-trousered cliche, solidified into a handful of easily-recognised and utterly conservative tropes and gestures". The Clash were the last of the leathery old fuckers in bandanas and scuffed knees. The Clash were exactly why The Smiths needed to happen.

[Mr Beast]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

I think The Clash were great. But The Smiths were better.

[Spearmint Rhino]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

I quite like a bit of The Clash these days. The things that used to annoy me about them still annoy me, but my hardline has softened.

(Just thought I'd mention this for the sake of older OTF-heads, because I pretty much announced my arrival on this board, all those years ago, with a big thing about how I hated The Clash...)

[Bored Of Education]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

[quote]The Clash were the last of the leathery old fuckers in bandanas and scuffed knees

until Guns and Roses

I quite like a bit of The Clash these days. The things that used to annoy me about them still annoy me, but my hardline has softened.

See my attitude to the Smiths and, indeed, The Clash presently.

While re-evaluating my position on whether the Smiths are actually a rock and roll band, a random playing of "Dawning of a new era" by one of your other favourites made me think that they had a better shot of "Best rock and roll band of the 80s*" than the Smiths. Melding of black and white cultures and genres, energy, slight bit of aggression, strident attitude, great image.

*just in

[imp]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

Spearmint Rhino wrote:

If you were an alienated, lonely British teenager between '83-'87, The Smiths felt like a fucking crusade. If you weren't an alienated, lonely British teenager between '83-'87, I can see how this might make you shrug with bemusement. But trust me on this.

Yep, that was the thing. The number of people you met who'd tapped into their misery-wit articulation of that outsider vibe was astonishing, and this being framed within reams of riffs that few peers could touch by the mid-80s leant them an appeal that was by no means universal, but really was special to a significant swathe of our pallid, anti-Thatcherite ilk. Rightly or wrongly, they were a lot more fun than joining the SWP.

I always felt that those who stayed aloof and disdained Morrissey as a melancholic poseur must have deliberately made no attempt to listen to the music because he worried them. Maybe some were cautious about identifying with a vaguely androgynous oddball. He was no messiah, but he was part of something that at the very least bordered on genius.

[meregreen]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

Mr Beast wrote:

I think The Clash were great. But The Smiths were better.

I think the Clash were great, but the Smiths were wetter. And all the more interesting for it too.

Despite their year zero punk credentials it was obvious that the Clash saw the Rolling Stones and their career trajectory as the template to emulate. And as role models go for a band of that era, who better than the Stones. I remember reading an interview with Chrissie Hynde in which she spoke of Mick Jones desperately trying to style his hair like Keith Richard's, because Keef was like, the man.

Does rock’n’roll claim to represent the outsider? If so, I haven’t read the manifesto. I agree that the Smiths performed this valuable role, but a similar function had earlier been performed by David Bowie, the Sex Pistols (until Lydon left), Lou Reed among others, all of whom in my eyes were rock’n’roll.

The Smiths were good, but I'm not sure they were groundbreakers or entirely necessary. But I’m a couple of years older than SR and most of my teenage angst had been exorcised listening to Joy Division. So perhaps you had to be there or be there at a certain age. Either way, and despite my reservations I find myself paraphrashing Hobbes in that there are a lot of bands I like more than the Smiths, but very few I’d say were better.

As for SR’s comment about the end of rock, does anyone remember Pete Wylie launching his Rock against Rockism campaign? Never really caught on, but perhaps by then it didn’t need to.

[Gangster Octopus]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

imp wrote:

I always felt that those who stayed aloof and disdained Morrissey as a melancholic poseur must have deliberately made no attempt to listen to the music because he worried them.

But if you were already a grown up, all you went on was the music. Which was alright, but too guitar based for me.

[Vulgarian Visigoth]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

Could people stop using those pseudo-Marxist concepts like necessary or relevant to refer to pop music?

[Spearmint Rhino]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

Insert witty username wrote:

Could people stop using those pseudo-Marxist concepts like necessary or relevant to refer to pop music?

Why 'pseudo-Marxist'? I don't understand.

[Bored Of Education]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

I'm glad you asked that

[G-Man]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

The idea that The Smiths were not groundbreaking leaves me speechless.

imp wrote:

He was no messiah, but he was part of something that at the very least bordered on genius.

And, above all, he was a very naughty boy, of course.

[ad hoc]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

Gangster Octopus wrote:

But if you were already a grown up, all you went on was the music. Which was alright, but too guitar based for me.

Says the man who seems to reserve his greatest love for well known synth and washboard combo, The Ramones

[Gangster Octopus]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

And never bought owt after the third album. Which I only played once...

Besides, that was in 1977. The Smiths were in 1984 or so. The world was a very, very different place by then.

[Harry Lime]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

But a better place for having the Smiths in it, I’d say.

Getting back to the original post Hatful Of Hollow is The Smith’s best record partially because the versions of This Charming Man, Reel Around the Fountain etc are better than the official studio versions but also because it catches the band at their absolute peak, the singles in between The Smiths and Meat Is Murder. Heaven Knows I’m Miserable Now, Girl Afraid, William It Was Really Nothing, Please Please Please, How Soon Is Now and This Night Has Opened My Eyes, a tune which could well have gone unreleased otherwise.

They just seemed to be at their best then, Morrisey’s imagery was at its best, Marr’s guitar was at its most sparkling, the production was spot on, as in not an issue... they just couldn’t put a foot wrong, except possibly squandering How Soon Is Now as a B-side initially.

Of the studio albums, the debut is hampered by the woeful production, Meat Is Murder isn’t brilliant but not quite as bad as its detractors claim, The Queen Is Dead is fine, but nowhere near the towering achievement its many supporters claim and Strangeways, which I liked so much at one point I wrote my A level English exam in praise of, just seems a bit half arsed in retrospect.

It’s still got I won’t Share You and Death Of A Disco Dancer on it though.

Despite that the Smiths albums I occasionally come back to... very occasionally it’s gotta be said… are Hollow and The World Won’t Listen.

They were unquestionably brilliant though, even if they are the kind of band you go off and even if Morrissey is an utter, utter, bellend.

[Er Liquidatore]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

They say nothing to me about my life.

I've always wanted to say that.

[linus]

The Smiths - Songs That Endure?

Did you know that some girls' mothers are bigger than other girls' mothers?