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    #26
    Or, more succinctly, the "US arrogance" stuff comes from the US behaving towards England how England behave towards the rest of the world, but then actually being able to justify that attitude.

    Remember England Algeria Slovenia Yanks?

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      #27
      Being less arrogant than Tracy's dimmer brother isn't setting the bar too high

      Good analysis though

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        #28
        Originally posted by Bizarre Löw Triangle View Post
        Or, more succinctly, the "US arrogance" stuff comes from the US behaving towards England how England behave towards the rest of the world, but then actually being able to justify that attitude.

        Remember England Algeria Slovenia Yanks?
        Not wanting to stick up for England here, but I'm not sure how much control they have over newspaper headlines.

        I don't mind a bit of arrogance. When England do it, then fall over and kick themselves in the face and bum at the same time it's hilarious. The problem is arrogance is only bearable if followed by hubristic failure.

        A few days ago the three year anniversary Facebook thing came up of England getting beaten by Iceland. I remember genuinely crying with laughter as that catastrophe engulfed Roonaldo and co.

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          #29
          Originally posted by Bizarre Löw Triangle View Post

          We've reached a point where everything the USWNT do is framed as arrogant.

          Sticking 13 past Thailand was arrogant. Not a team looking ahead to a group game against the side that had knocked them out of the Olympics and realising that if Sweden outscored them against Thailand and Chile they could win the group by holding US to a draw (which seems to me to be the opposite of arrogance idk). The President dredging up a several week old candid interview in the middle of a tournament to embarrass one of their players and get them harassed online by fascists was apparently arrogant. Celebrating goals is arrogant. Celebrating important goals (against France, England) was arrogant, and celebrating unimportant goals (against Thailand) equally so.

          If the US are arrogant, it doesn't extend to their football, which if anything gave their knockout opponents too much respect and let them back into games that the US were superior in.

          Rapinoe has a big mouth, sure, but she's a mercurial genius and a lightning rod for criticism. She talks big, but she has to and she backs it up big time. We should celebrate that in the way that Eric Cantona is celebrated.

          For all the talk about US arrogance, they weren't the team whose coach lectured the entire world about "how the game should be played"; or who declared one of his players "the best in the world" before a match where she was handed her arse by the second choice US player in that position. Even though it would have been true, I don/t think Jill Ellis ever said that losing a semi-final would be a failure (or decried the third place playoff as a "nonsense" game). Or appointing himself coach of a different team mid-tournament. The difference between the US and England, though, is the US backed up their pre-game words on the pitch.
          Yeah. Agree with all this.

          I don't mind Megan Rapinoe having a "big mouth". She seems to be mainly punching up.

          Her goal celebration is no more arrogant than Ronaldo or Zlatan.

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            #30
            Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post

            Not wanting to stick up for England here, but I'm not sure how much control they have over newspaper headlines.

            I don't mind a bit of arrogance. When England do it, then fall over and kick themselves in the face and bum at the same time it's hilarious. The problem is arrogance is only bearable if followed by hubristic failure.

            A few days ago the three year anniversary Facebook thing came up of England getting beaten by Iceland. I remember genuinely crying with laughter as that catastrophe engulfed Roonaldo and co.
            It's not really arrogance if you can back it up though? The arrogance of England's Golden Generation was funny because no matter how often England exited a tournament to the first good team they came up against, it was impossible to dent the unshakeable belief that they were champions in waiting.

            Is Roger Federer arrogant? It seems a bit unfair to judge him for believing something we'd probably all agree with - that's he's one of the greatest tennis players to have ever lived. Similarly, the US team acting like anything other than winning the tournament would be a major disappointment to them is entirely valid cos it would have been.

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              #31
              Well, yeah. I guess another way of thinking about it is about showing grace in winning and graceless winning. (Phil Neville after the Cameroon game was a graceless winner imo)

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                #32
                It's not really arrogance if you can back it up though? The arrogance of England's Golden Generation was funny because no matter how often England exited a tournament to the first good team they came up against, it was impossible to dent the unshakeable belief that they were champions in waiting.

                Is Roger Federer arrogant? It seems a bit unfair to judge him for believing something we'd probably all agree with - that's he's one of the greatest tennis players to have ever lived. Similarly, the US team acting like anything other than winning the tournament would be a major disappointment to them is entirely valid cos it would have been.

                Yes, it's still arrogance, just with a bit more substance behind it and not one bit more attractive or acceptable as a consequence.

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                  #33
                  I dunno...I used to greatly enjoy Mohammed Ali's "I am the greatest" spiels.

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                    #34
                    And their political and cultural impact should not be underestimated. As with Rapinoe's.

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                      #35
                      Originally posted by Sporting View Post
                      I dunno...I used to greatly enjoy Mohammed Ali's "I am the greatest" spiels.
                      Thing is, Ali was a black man speaking out and confronting the powers of oppression.

                      The USA as a country is so dominant in culture and capitalism that the USWNT feels like part of the oppressor, regardless of how much they try to put distance between them and Trump.

                      EDIT: so maybe within their own country, the arrogance is necessary in their struggle. but maybe not when they are contending with women from other countries where it feels more like the big kid swinging her weight around.
                      Last edited by Patrick Thistle; 08-07-2019, 16:15.

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                        #36
                        Rapinoe's disdain has certainly been focused on the political forces that seek to criminalise her, rather than her opponents on the pitch.

                        Whereas Ali regularly belittled his black opponents too (see his profound disrespect for Frazier, etc).

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                          #37
                          I should probably say that I didn't think that the US team or their fans came over particularly badly. I thought that Rapinoe's celebrations after slotting away penalties were a bit excessive and I don't think that anyone really likes the old U-S-A chant, though the Icelandic Thunder Clap version is, unbelievably, probably even worse. My biggest grumble was the game management, the running the ball into the corner, which seemed to start a hell of a long time before the final whistles blew. All very professional, of course, with percentages being played, but it left a sour taste in the mouth and I just felt that were too good for that.

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                            #38
                            What BLT's fine post also failed to mention is Alex Morgan got the shit kicked out of her for much of the tournament, yet she got labelled arrogant every time she had a stink face towards a referee that failed to card/send off the player who fouled her.

                            They're good, and they know they're good, but when you've got Chris Paouros inventing the term "patriarchal shithousery" on Football Weekly to disguise the fact she's sad England lost to a better team, I think we're through the looking glass here.

                            I'll also note that Muhammad Ali is a cultural icon but calling Joe Frazier a Tom was way, way worse than anything the USA has done for the last six weeks.

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                              #39
                              Originally posted by Bizarre Löw Triangle View Post
                              We've reached a point where everything the USWNT do is framed as arrogant.

                              I didn't, and wouldn't, criticise the US team for arrogance. When you're as good as they are several degrees of hyper-confidence are inevitable. It's how they handle it I've a problem with. Disrespecting others, especially your opponents, is crass, boorish and classless there's no excuse for it in any context.

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                                #40
                                Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                Rapinoe's disdain has certainly been focused on the political forces that seek to criminalise her, rather than her opponents on the pitch.
                                Ok. But her "Mwah, mwah, mwah, mwah, mwah!" response to the teams on-field celebrations was absolutely from the Trump handbook on how to deal with criticism.

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                                  #41
                                  I understand that she isn't your cup of tea,.Amor, and agree that they have been boorish at times vis a vis Canada (as has the hockey team).

                                  ​​​That said, anything that pisses off the likes of him, Ann Coulter and Eric Erickson is absolutely fine in my book.

                                  She also is deflecting negative attention away from several of her teammates who are less comfortable being advocates.

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                                    #42
                                    I can't believe I'm seeing objection to the (admitteldy awful) U-S-A chanting and not seeing any objection to the terrible "I believe that we will win" chant.

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                                      #43
                                      I don't think that one is as obvious on television if you haven't been over-exposed to it in adverts.

                                      It also began with the men's team, which adds an extra layer of ridiculousness.

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                                        #44
                                        I understand that she isn't your cup of tea,.Amor, and agree that they have been boorish at times vis a vis Canada (as has the hockey team).

                                        ​​​That said, anything that pisses off the likes of him, Ann Coulter and Eric Erickson is absolutely fine in my book.




                                        I don't particularly dislike her, I honestly admire her stand politically. But I do believe, that however noble the objective, the attitudes you take and the language you use are important too. It is possible to become as bad your own enemy without taking account of that.

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                                          #45
                                          What else could they chant apart from USA?

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                                            #46
                                            It used to be "Let's Go Yanks".

                                            We aren't very creative when it comes to fandom.

                                            Amor, that is definitely a valid point, and I would say that her advocacy outside of the stress of the tournament has been more nuanced.

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                                              #47
                                              Originally posted by Amor de Cosmos View Post
                                              Yes, but not especially in terms of attitude. Rapinoe's response to criticisms of the USA's "in your face" behaviour, is pretty Trumpian. As was Lindsay Horan's loud chanted interuption of "USA! USA" while Canadian Steph Houghton was being interviewed on radio after their match. It's asshole behavior as is Trump's and his ilk. They may be on the other side politically but in terms of respect some of them are just as boorish.
                                              Interesting bit with Kapernick's vs Rapinoe's treatment. Here the US Women got the highest ratings ever, including the Deep South. For whatever reason, enough conservative dads had daughters and whatever it was in the American or Southern genetics they taught their daughters how to throw, and soccer took over because enough of those dads realized it wasn't that different from Am Football or basketball. Once they saw their kid hit someone, or their kid get hit, it was kind of instant path to 3 players being from Georgia, and others from Kansas or Arizona.

                                              Then add to the fact these white Southerners have a cousin or daughter or niece who developed some different, uh, preferences along the way. They're still family. They're still white.

                                              Kap isn't. Or not enough. Then what if he won those 2 Super Bowls, and had beaten the Ravens and Seahawks and Pats? I would say there's no way in hell he would've been gentleman's agreed upon.

                                              The USWNT's free speech and audacity to challenge Repubs is the one place they are guarded by their flag and their shield....and their wins. (It may also have something to do with Franco's playbook of allowing Barça to be "Mes Qué Un Club." Bread and circuses and all that.)

                                              Because as soon as a few weeks of purple-haired loudmouths winning trophies and subsequent parades go by....it'll be 4 years of a media blackout.

                                              On the other hand, maybe they are brash, and talk shit. And what's the first thing you learn about how to stand up to bullies?

                                              Because I sure didn't see any of the women of the DNC saying any of this.

                                              It's why I hope they all party with AOC.

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                                                #48
                                                Originally posted by Amor de Cosmos View Post

                                                Ok. But her "Mwah, mwah, mwah, mwah, mwah!" response to the teams on-field celebrations was absolutely from the Trump handbook on how to deal with criticism.
                                                Honestly can't understand how you didn't find that an extremely funny response to a ridiculous question? Pinoe is funny. She clowns in press conferences. And I dunno I'd far rather than than media coached banality.

                                                Some people really do hate fun and joy particularly the fun and joy of people who've just knocked their lot out.

                                                The nice thing about Rapinoe is she says what she thinks - it's not an act or if it is it's an act that extends far beyond the media glare of a world cup. The questions about Alex Morgan's celebration were ridiculous petty whining and it was nice to see them called as much.
                                                Last edited by Bizarre Löw Triangle; 08-07-2019, 21:37.

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                                                  #49
                                                  Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
                                                  I can't believe I'm seeing objection to the (admitteldy awful) U-S-A chanting and not seeing any objection to the terrible "I believe that we will win" chant.
                                                  Yeah, that chant began with teams whose chances of winning were not at all certain. I read an oral history of that a few years ago. It began at the Naval Academy's Prep School and then came into MLS, college soccer, and the USMNT.

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                                                    #50
                                                    Originally posted by Amor de Cosmos View Post

                                                    Ok. But her "Mwah, mwah, mwah, mwah, mwah!" response to the teams on-field celebrations was absolutely from the Trump handbook on how to deal with criticism.
                                                    Aside from the difference of "punching-up" vs "punching down," there's a big difference between an athlete, who is really just an entertainer playing in games that ultimately don't really matter, and somebody with an obscene level of power who is morally and constitutionally accountable to the people criticizing him.

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