Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Should Russo start on Sunday?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Should Russo start on Sunday?

    Some extra build up seems merited for the Final. I'll admit to not being au fait with Germany's selection options and choices, so this opening post will focus on England... but if anyone has stuff they want to say on what Voss-Tecklenberg might be pondering over, or surprises she might spring (she will probably ignore my brilliant wheeze of moving Alex Popp to fourth choice goalkeeper...), feel free to add those here as well. Unless a dedicated thread for Germany team team selection discussions feels a better fit? Your call.


    Anyway, for England one of the two most obvious issues is about centre-forward. One player, Ellen White, has started every game in the position... and she has only scored twice in a team that is far and away the tournament's leading scorers (20 to Germany's next best of 13). Alessia Russo, her replacement off the bench in every game has managed double that (4 goals) in not much more than half the playing time, as the change usually happens around the hour mark. The argument in favour of the alteration is the team seems more effective once Russo comes on. the counter-argument is actually stemming from the same thing - this pattern, White starts and plays an hour before giving way to Russo, is working damn well. Why on earth change it?
    The thought experiment here is what happens if Weigman did make the alteration, and Russo went through 60 goalless minutes in the final. Then she has a replacement (White) who is smarting and very disappointed and slightly publicly humiliated at being dropped coming off the bench. That doesn't sound ideal. She might end up trying too hard, even.

    The other personnel one is the same it has been all tournament - Rachel Daly at left-back. She is a forward for her club, playing out of position. However natural left-backs are somewhat thin on the ground in the squad - Alex Greenwood was once, but she has been more of a left-sided centre-back this season for her club. Whether she has the pace for full-back is questionable. Without an obvious alternative I think Daly plays.

    And the final issue is shape, and defending the full-back spaces. Lucy Bronze bombing forward down the right worked in the end, as she set up the first goal from doing that. But on another day it might have cost England the game, as they could easily have been two down in the first ten minutes from Sweden clearly targeting Bronze's side to take advantage of her high starting position. In particular if Stine Blackstenius had been, erm, more 'professional' when a completely caught out and beaten Bronze shoved her in the back as she was racing through to shoot (if Blackstenius had pulled an 'Ellen White vs Norway' let's call it) then England could easily have found themselves down to 10 and facing a penalty kick with 80 minutes still to play. The reward of Bronze playing that way was high, but so was the risk. On another day... or against another, more ruthless opponent...

    With all of this we come back to the coach, though. Everyone says that Weigman is tough, unsentimental, and knows her own mind so is not likely to be influenced by outside pressures. She has picked the same starting XI for all five games, and made most of the same substitutions as well. The seems to back up the 'knows her own mind' thing - she has what she believes is a best team and she is playing it at all times. That would suggest there is little to no chance of England approaching the final with a tweaked starting line up or initial tactically set. The unsentimental part goes the other way though - if Weigman has been won over by what she is seeing from Russo and now believes a starting front three of Mead, Russo, Hemp gives her side the best chance of winning, then the potential fall out of dropping a regular starter for the biggest game is not a decision she is likely to duck.


    In conclusion - baring injury or illness we know the England team and tactics already, don't we?

    #2
    I'm pondering the kits, as England are listed on the left hand side of the teams I presume they will be wearing the first kit of all white meaning Germany will be in their change of all green?

    Comment


      #3
      Confirmed

      https://www.theguardian.com/football...-to-change-kit

      Comment


        #4
        I'd keep White in and bring Russo on as the impact sub which she has been the perfect example of so far. Another way of viewing White's lack of goals is that she creates space for other players, especially Beth Mead. And she is good at winning free kicks and penalties. I realise that's a very cynical take but sometimes a bit of cynicism is needed. (See the comments about Oberdorf on the semi final thread, despite her being a persistent fouler. Players can be both great and naughty.)

        Comment


          #5
          I also don't think Daly has done much wrong and as a full back seems to have been more reliable doing full back things than Lucy Bronze. Tbh, Bronze doesn't seem to have lived up to the hype this tournament. Although it's doubtful anyone could.

          Comment


            #6
            I really hope they don't give Pearce the commentary.

            Comment


              #7
              Unfortunately that is a given. He is their prime commentator on Women’s matches. And has been for around a decade now (a rare positive about him being he embraced the role when it was offered to him, and that was before Women’s football became fashionable). Probably with Sue Smith as his sidekick - that is the usual pairing for England games.

              Comment


                #8
                Robyn Cowen has had all England's games so far, she's named as the lead commentator, I imagine she'll get the final, Rachel Brown-Finnis as the co-commentator.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Huh. You are right of course - it was a female voice getting vastly over-excited and being completely one-eyed in the Semi. Blithe assumptions... When did they demote Pearce?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Robyn Cowan is definitely doing it, she was on the Guardain podcast and she was asked about it

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Pearce hasn't done the biggest games for a couple of years now. It's mostly been Robyn Cowen or Vicki Sparks on the England games, cup finals, etc. Also, Sue Smith doesn't even work for the Beeb anymore, does she? Pretty sure she's been Sky only for the last few seasons.

                      Anyway, back to the OP, for me White has to start. As PT says, her movement and nuisance value is worth it for that first hour. As one of the pundits was saying after the semi (think it was Izzy Christiansen), one of the reasons Russo is able to have such a big impact is that the opposing defence is absolutely knackered after an hour of chasing White about and getting a few big bumps when they do get close enough to her. Think the line-up for Sunday is very much a case of if it ain't broke...

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Yeah, watching the Austria game live you do get a much better idea of how good White's movement both in possession and out of it is. It was the most noticeable thing about England that doesn't fully come across on TV. I think Daly is a weaker link, and they'd be better with Greenwood there, but if Wiegman wasn't going to make the change after she got eviscerated by Spain in the second half, she's not going to change it now.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          https://twitter.com/fadumo_oo/status/1553003253935267841?s=21&t=QhfeDlw4GtlMJHDGO3RHsg

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by moo cowe View Post
                            Robyn Cowen has had all England's games so far, she's named as the lead commentator, I imagine she'll get the final, Rachel Brown-Finnis as the co-commentator.

                            I don't think I've heard a co-commentator talk as much as RBF does during a game. I swear she has more airtime than Cowen.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission View Post


                              I don't think I've heard a co-commentator talk as much as RBF does during a game. I swear she has more airtime than Cowen.
                              Fine by me – her analysis is excellent, especially on goalkeeping.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Jobi1 View Post

                                Fine by me – her analysis is excellent, especially on goalkeeping.

                                That's interesting. Maybe I'm just used to commentaries that are primarily descriptions of the action by the primary commentator but supplemented by a moderate amount of balanced tactical analysis by or with the co-. RBF seems to be extremely partial, with her comments more about what England have to do to win the game than anything else.

                                But hey, I'm an England fan so I'm quite happy with that. I just thought that neutrals or the ABEs might find her a bit too much.

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission View Post
                                  That's interesting. Maybe I'm just used to commentaries that are primarily descriptions of the action by the primary commentator but supplemented by a moderate amount of balanced tactical analysis by or with the co-.
                                  I wonder if all these years of being subjected to the 'input' of the likes of Lawro and Danny Murphy have just set us all very low expectations as to what a co- can/should offer.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Jobi1 View Post

                                    I wonder if all these years of being subjected to the 'input' of the likes of Lawro and Danny Murphy have just set us all very low expectations as to what a co- can/should offer.

                                    Heh, maybe so.

                                    My complaint, if you can call it that, is more about quantity than quality though. I'm just used to a description of the play with the occasional insight from the co-. Cowen seems to have to constantly metaphorically wrestle the microphone away from RBF in order to inform the viewers about what's actually going on, much as I secretly applaud the latter's partisan enthusiasm.

                                    Perhaps I just don't like change!

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                                      I'd keep White in and bring Russo on as the impact sub which she has been the perfect example of so far. Another way of viewing White's lack of goals is that she creates space for other players, especially Beth Mead. And she is good at winning free kicks and penalties. I realise that's a very cynical take but sometimes a bit of cynicism is needed. (See the comments about Oberdorf on the semi final thread, despite her being a persistent fouler. Players can be both great and naughty.)
                                      This strikes me as a very accurate summation of what is happening. White isn't scoring many goals, but as an attacking unit it seems to be going pretty well, particularly when they can bring on a late sub to take advantage of the exhaustion of the opponents. But you see this in the men's game too. Managers try to maximise the goals from the front three as a unit, but fans and papers often seem to act as though they'd prefer a setup where the front three scored 50 goals, and the centre forward scored 30, to a set up where the front three score 60 goals, with them each getting 20. (Hi cristiano + fans)

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission View Post
                                        My complaint, if you can call it that, is more about quantity than quality though. I'm just used to a description of the play with the occasional insight from the co-. Cowen seems to have to constantly metaphorically wrestle the microphone away from RBF in order to inform the viewers about what's actually going on, much as I secretly applaud the latter's partisan enthusiasm.

                                        Perhaps I just don't like change!
                                        I do get that. I think as a goalkeeping nerd I'm just very predisposed towards her, and particularly loved the moment in the England–Norway game in this tournament when Cowen went to make a light-hearted joke about Earps being a spectator, and RBF cut her off to give a very stern and detailed lecture about everything a goalkeeper is actually doing in those kinds of games. Taking your point though, that was one that could perhaps have been saved for the analysis! Strike while the iron's hot though, I guess. Anyway, it just makes such a refreshing change from the likes of Jonathan Pearce (hello also to Gary Neville and Glenn Hoddle), where anything that doesn't fly at high velocity right into the top corner of the widest part of the goal is basically a goalkeeping error.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Jobi1 View Post

                                          I do get that. I think as a goalkeeping nerd I'm just very predisposed towards her, and particularly loved the moment in the England–Norway game in this tournament when Cowen went to make a light-hearted joke about Earps being a spectator, and RBF cut her off to give a very stern and detailed lecture about everything a goalkeeper is actually doing in those kinds of games. Taking your point though, that was one that could perhaps have been saved for the analysis! Strike while the iron's hot though, I guess. Anyway, it just makes such a refreshing change from the likes of Jonathan Pearce (hello also to Gary Neville and Glenn Hoddle), where anything that doesn't fly at high velocity right into the top corner of the widest part of the goal is basically a goalkeeping error.
                                          The way commentators, co commentators and pundits, and then by extension fans talk about goalkeepers drives me up the fucking wall. It becomes abundantly clear that former footballers hate goalkeepers, and literally have no understanding of what they do. They have no idea of what is hard, and what is easy, and they don't take into account that a goalkeeper needs to have near supernatural powers of foresight to basically do anything.

                                          Since people have no understanding of what a goalie does, it does rather become a faith based, magical individual shit show. A goalkeeper is considered world class, until they make their first mistake or two. After that it's "dodgy keeper". In that golden initial period they can do little or no wrong, and people will make excuses for every goal, then it switches to blaming them for every shot that goes in, and any save they make is a mistake by the forward. (This magic individual/faith based nonsense I suspect weighs into why goalkeepers are disproportionately white, the most striking example being Brazil going nearly 50 years without picking a black goalkeeper after the 1950 world cup "final")

                                          If you're a goalkeeper you have two good options when facing a shot. Either save it, or don't move at all. If you save it, you're a hero or it was a bad mistake by the forward depending on what underlying narrative the commentator team is going with at the time. If you don't move It was unsavable. The fucking worst thing you can do is nearly save it, and if you nearly save it, it's a bad mistake by the goalkeeper, even if getting that close was a fucking miracle.

                                          That thing about a goalkeeper being disappointed about being beaten at the near post always struck me as nonsense, and BT Sports did a very good documentary about goalkeepers, where Rob Green explained why that's nonsense. Basically It's virtually impossible to save a well struck shot at the near post, because the distance is considerably shorter, and they get a meaningfully shorter time to respond. The Goalkeeper isn't going to be disappointed that they were beaten at the near post, because they likely barely saw the fucking ball before it crossed the line. The reason that it wasn't common in the past wasn't because goalkeepers were better at defending their front post, it's that shooting at the near post requires a much higher level of accuracy, to the point that forwards were coached to always shoot across the keeper as they had a wider angle to aim at, and the keeper might spill it into play. But what happens when it's sergio aguero trundling in on an angle? You don't know what corner of the goal he's going to choose to lash the ball violently into because he can pull off all four shots, or if you have your legs a little too far apart, he can smash it right through them.

                                          But there's also the element that goalkeepers have to behave probabilistically, fill the parts of the goal that the striker is most likely to shoot at, and hope they hit you, and a really good player can quite often take advantage of that, and leave the goalkeeper looking "foolish". (I think this goal by Robbie Fowler in the game where eric Cantona returned after his ban is a really good example. The video cuts off just as Andy Gray starts slagging off schmeichel, for being beaten by a shot that seemed like actual magic at the time.)



                                          . There's also people who complain that keepers don't come out to catch corners, or crosses like they used to, ignoring the fact that keepers didn't come out that often in the past, and even then they were coming out to catch floated, high trajectory crosses that weren't going very fast. The sort of thing you simply don't see very often, as crosses now are hit about twice as hard, and on flatter trajectories that are more difficult to predict. Just basically so much nonsense.

                                          This sort of nonsense has consequences. That BT documentary had a long chat with Robert Enke's Dad. It was extremely sad, and very thought provoking. I immediately found myself thinking of Loris Karius, and all the shit he got after the 2018 CL final.
                                          Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 31-07-2022, 14:24.

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            I think I love you, The Awesome Berbaslug!!!

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Watch the 1979 FA Cup final. I've said this before. Pat Jennings could have been sat on a deckchair in the middle of the goal reading the Daily Express and smoking a pipe for all the difference he made, and Gary Bailey strayed off his line to try and catch a cross once - once- with memorably disastrous consequenses.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Jobi1 View Post
                                                I think I love you, The Awesome Berbaslug!!!
                                                Awww I'm blushing here!

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  I can't remember who was making the comment, but I recall some pundit with a 'keeping background talking about David James (in James' defence) saying "People always talk about dodgy 'keepers, but few ever remark on marginally slow 'keepers". The point being that a 'keeper that saves five efforts that most others wouldn't is still an overall positive for their team even if they let in one shot that most others stop per five top draw saves. That metaphor is simplistic of course, because it doesn't cover positioning and game-reading, but can be extended to those as well. It is just as relevant in those cases.

                                                  The stuff about Karius was a conflation of a bunch of ignorances and toxicities. Not just a failure to understand how difficult goalkeeping is, but also the stuff about being a manly man and playing through injury, on top of a lack of appreciation of the seriousness and insidiousness of head injuries. Throw in also being unable to back down and accept the criticism made at the time was the result of being ill-informed and was therefore wrong.

                                                  Comment

                                                  Working...
                                                  X