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Semi-final 2 - France v Germany

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    Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post

    The things that annoy me most about football at the moment are it's transformation into the primary bastion of toxic masculinity, and a hotbed of reactionary conservatism. I've really enjoyed watching a tournament where both those things have been strangely absent. I have no idea why that might be. Maybe if we all put our minds to it, we might be able to figure out why that is.
    It seems the most hackneyed of cliches - and maybe a little patronising when coming from a male - to say that women’s tournaments are a “breath of fresh air” when set against the toxicity of the men’s game but that’s how it feels.

    Is it just me or had it been more generally noticeable over the years that when cameras pan the stadiums during men’s WC or Euro final games the women in the crowd seem to be having more fun than the men? There’s an innate, gender related sense of perspective difference in these situations that education, in its broader sense, is struggling to address.



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      Originally posted by Janik View Post
      Because the people at the games are there to watch Football, rather than to publicly identify themselves with a particular tribe. Football is not the creator of the environment that pervades the Men’s game, it is the victim that toxic culture has latched itself on to.
      I'm not sure about this. It's partially true, but I think football is not simply a victim. Football for many years was the one place where the toxicity that had sort of been suppressed in most of society was still able to express itself. Obviously there were some periods that were better than others, but it never really left. Now that the toxicity is mainstream again, especially since the Brexit referendum, it's reestablished itself in football stadiums (and online in football related arguments), but I;m not sure football is entirely blameless in this. Maybe this is because football by nature is tribal, but I don;t think enough was done and is being done to address it (I should stress I don't have easy answers about how it could be addressed, but I;m not convinced that anyone has even really been looking)

      I attended two (home) England games in the late 80s and told myself I would never go back. I hated every moment of the seeing the crowd in the flesh. I'd never imagined I'd ever see people doing nazi salutes in all seriousness. I have no idea if it has got any better but from my TV based perspective it doesn't look like it. But, looking at the crowds for the women's team it looks like fun, not this awful dark underbelly of society that attends England games (I recognise that there are people here that do attend those games and do not fit into that category and I am sure there are many others. But there are too many of the Britain First type cunts)

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        Originally posted by Tony C View Post

        Is it just me or had it been more generally noticeable over the years that when cameras pan the stadiums during men’s WC or Euro final games the women in the crowd seem to be having more fun than the men? There’s an innate, gender related sense of perspective difference in these situations that education, in its broader sense, is struggling to address.

        I mention it not because I think it necessarily highlights a wider point, but just because I noticed it while watching the two games side by side but the men in the crowd at the cricket last night where having a whale of a time, at least each time a six was hit into their section (which happened 29 times!)

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          Originally posted by Tony C View Post
          Is it just me or had it been more generally noticeable over the years that when cameras pan the stadiums during men’s WC or Euro final games the women in the crowd seem to be having more fun than the men?
          I mostly agree, although I'd add that some of the most memorable images of fans crying at football matches have been women (thinking particularly of woman in glasses in Belo Horizonte for the 7-1 Brazil game). That might just be vision mixers preferring images of women crying to men, for reasons which would take a while to unpack.

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            Originally posted by Etienne View Post
            the men in the crowd at the cricket last night where having a whale of a time, at least each time a six was hit into their section (which happened 29 times!)
            Maybe that's down to the format to some extent though- maybe I'm completely off base and out of touch with the cricket watching public, but does anyone actually get exercised about 20-20? Seems so inherently unserious (29 sixes!)

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              Agree that Oberdorf was lucky to stay on the pitch - she should have been yellow-carded first half for a tactical foul. That was balanced by the lenience afforded to Bilbault, who should have had a second yellow in the second half for the same offence. Also, there were two clear first-half penalties for Germany, but god forbid VAR intervenes for anything besides an offside toe-nail, the useless twats. The referee (5 out of 10) reflects the inexplicable trend for leniency, cheered on by the ex-pro pundits, which helps make the game dirtier and harder for referees at all levels.

              Intense, thrilling game. Can't wait for the final, and despite what I've written above, I'm very glad that Oberdorf's not suspended.
              Last edited by imp; 28-07-2022, 09:00.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Janik View Post
                Because the people at the games are there to watch Football, rather than to publicly identify themselves with a particular tribe. Football is not the creator of the environment that pervades the Men’s game, it is the victim that toxic culture has latched itself on to.
                English men's football is an avatar of England's national anxieties more than any other sport. English men's rugby fans and cricket fans are awful, yes, but they're a very different sort of awful - a laddish, we're here to have a good time, now i'm going to drink ten pints of beer and three of my own piss, throw up on a child and abortively kick off in a kebab shop on the way home. But that's stag do masculinity rather than nationalism which is different.

                Women's football doesn't command the same sort of fevered patriotism that England men do - it's much more akin to England doing well in the Rugby or Cricket world cups or Emma Radacanu winning the US open - a load of interest from casual fans who will be happy if England win or sad if they lose but ultimately won't give it that much thought beyond the actual final.

                And the people who've been there all along will have a great time obviously.
                Last edited by Bizarre Löw Triangle; 28-07-2022, 09:57.

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                  IMG_20220727_213159218.jpg

                  For obvious reasons my first time at Stadium MK. Very smooth getting in and finding our seats, great atmosphere provided by a young and excitable crowd. Not quite a sellout but pretty close.

                  In front of us there were a group of about 20 American girls aged 13/14, all giving wholehearted support to France and generally set on having the absolute best time possible. I'm no fan of Mexican waves but the wave which took place just before the opening goal was started by those girls. At their third or fourth attempt it took off and when the ripple effect made it all the way round the stadium for the first time, they practically exploded with glee.

                  I thought it was great for local kids, especially local girls, to be able to see a big game like that on their doorstep; my partner's 10-year-old niece came along with us and was gripped from start to finish. The game had high and low points, France seemed to be reliant on a piece of individual magic but each of their forward players was very isolated. Germany had hard work and better coordination on their side and were deserved winners.
                  Last edited by Furtho; 28-07-2022, 13:08.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by imp View Post
                    I'm very glad that Oberdorf's not suspended.
                    I was a fan of hers before yesterday's game. Today I declare her my all-time favourite German women's footballer.

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                      Originally posted by imp View Post
                      Agree that Oberdorf was lucky to stay on the pitch - she should have been yellow-carded first half for a tactical foul. That was balanced by the lenience afforded to Bilbault, who should have had a second yellow in the second half for the same offence. Also, there were two clear first-half penalties for Germany, but god forbid VAR intervenes for anything besides an offside toe-nail, the useless twats. The referee (5 out of 10) reflects the inexplicable trend for leniency, cheered on by the ex-pro pundits, which helps make the game dirtier and harder for referees at all levels.

                      Intense, thrilling game. Can't wait for the final, and despite what I've written above, I'm very glad that Oberdorf's not suspended.
                      I thought there were three penalties in the first half. One for dragging at a free kick in the incident where a German jumped into the keeper. One where Renaud couldn't keep her header on target at a free kick because popp had her in an armlock and one where Renaud just shoved the German winger to the ground for the hell of it as a ball ran over the endline.

                      But all three were as plain as day, and happened right in front of the referee. If VAR gets in the ref;s ear and asks her what did she think just happened, and she says "i saw that but there wasnt enough in it for me" there's nothing VAR can do. This is so they can say that VAR isn't going to be re-reffing the game or undermining the referee's authority. Personally I don't understand why? The ref only has two eyes, and everything is happening really fast, and the ref can't possibly be expected to see and grasp everything instantaneously.

                      As a ref IMP, would you feel undermined if a voice appeared in your ear and tells you you might have missed a detail, or something was a bit more of a foul than you thought? The whole "Ref Authority" thing sounds to me like Projection, from people who have either never refereed and have no concept of how difficult it might be, or are very far removed from being active footballers. I don't understand how players would look at a ref differently, if VAR were to get even more assertive. I mean I didn't notice players getting more aggressive with referees, when VAR would be checking possible penalties. Indeed it was quite the opposite.

                      As for Obersdorf, I seem to recall her getting away with another very heavy foul shortly before getting booked. Do you not think that if someone is asking to be suspended for the final in this manner, that it would be better to accede to their wishes? I mean it's not particularly fair to her opponents?

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                        Originally posted by G-Man View Post

                        I was a fan of hers before yesterday's game. Today I declare her my all-time favourite German women's footballer.
                        You old dog. Is this because she reminds you of a skilful Guido Buchwald all solid positioning, and eye watering fouls? Or perhaps because she looks like this? or is it a bit of both

                        images%2FGettyImages%2Fmmsport%2F90min_en_international_web%2F01g8hmzpjty32k4ej0yy.jpg
                        Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 29-07-2022, 00:54.

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                          My favourite German player will forever be the alliteratively pleasing Célia Šašić, born in Bonn.

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                            Now that you mention it, TAB, her physical appearance is not entirely displeasing. But, no, I like her for the reasons you mention: the total commitment which compensates for her technical shortcomings (which I think are overstated). Her performance against France was the sort of performance one might call in the martial terminology of men's football "heroic". Much like, indeed, Buchwald's in the 1990 World Cup final, when he totally unnerved Diego Maradonna. That, too, was a thing of beauty.

                            Plus, Oberdorf once said that she'd never go to Bayern, on principle. That points to a sound character. For her 20 years, she is a leader already.

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                              That points to her definitely signing for Bayern within two years

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                                Originally posted by Nesta View Post
                                That points to her definitely signing for Bayern within two years
                                Took the words right out of my mouth.

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                                  Originally posted by Jobi1 View Post
                                  My favourite German player will forever be the alliteratively pleasing Célia Šašić, born in Bonn.
                                  That really flows off the tongue doesn't it

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                                    Originally posted by Nesta View Post
                                    That points to her definitely signing for Bayern within two years
                                    Ha, perhaps. But she's already with the biggest club in German women's football, VfL Wolfsburg. They've won 7 league titles (including this year's) against Bayern's three (all combined 10 titles in the last 10 seasons), and get more spectators. I reckon that if she moves, it'll be to France or England.

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                                      Now that Bayern are taking women's football more seriously, they view Wolfsburg the way the men's team views Dortmund

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                                        Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post

                                        I thought there were three penalties in the first half. One for dragging at a free kick in the incident where a German jumped into the keeper. One where Renaud couldn't keep her header on target at a free kick because popp had her in an armlock and one where Renaud just shoved the German winger to the ground for the hell of it as a ball ran over the endline.

                                        But all three were as plain as day, and happened right in front of the referee. If VAR gets in the ref;s ear and asks her what did she think just happened, and she says "i saw that but there wasnt enough in it for me" there's nothing VAR can do. This is so they can say that VAR isn't going to be re-reffing the game or undermining the referee's authority. Personally I don't understand why? The ref only has two eyes, and everything is happening really fast, and the ref can't possibly be expected to see and grasp everything instantaneously.

                                        As a ref IMP, would you feel undermined if a voice appeared in your ear and tells you you might have missed a detail, or something was a bit more of a foul than you thought? The whole "Ref Authority" thing sounds to me like Projection, from people who have either never refereed and have no concept of how difficult it might be, or are very far removed from being active footballers. I don't understand how players would look at a ref differently, if VAR were to get even more assertive. I mean I didn't notice players getting more aggressive with referees, when VAR would be checking possible penalties. Indeed it was quite the opposite.

                                        As for Obersdorf, I seem to recall her getting away with another very heavy foul shortly before getting booked. Do you not think that if someone is asking to be suspended for the final in this manner, that it would be better to accede to their wishes? I mean it's not particularly fair to her opponents?

                                        If all that had happened in a Premier League game, wouldn't you have been going on about the lack of sanction all being down to Brexit and toxic masculinity and Graeme Souness or something?

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                                          I think all 3 games I've seen where Cheryl Foster has reffed the comments on here have veered towards her not being very good. I've always felt she was one of the better refs in the Cymru Premier (men's games) - but then that's not saying much because the overall standard isn't great.

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                                            Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                            Now that Bayern are taking women's football more seriously, they view Wolfsburg the way the men's team views Dortmund

                                            Comment


                                              Originally posted by Jobi1 View Post
                                              My favourite German player will forever be the alliteratively pleasing Célia Šašić, born in Bonn.
                                              My favorite is Laura Freigang (who is mostly a bench-warmer for Germany) because she played for Penn State.

                                              Comment


                                                Originally posted by Tony C View Post

                                                It seems the most hackneyed of cliches - and maybe a little patronising when coming from a male - to say that women’s tournaments are a “breath of fresh air” when set against the toxicity of the men’s game but that’s how it feels.

                                                Is it just me or had it been more generally noticeable over the years that when cameras pan the stadiums during men’s WC or Euro final games the women in the crowd seem to be having more fun than the men? There’s an innate, gender related sense of perspective difference in these situations that education, in its broader sense, is struggling to address.

                                                I don't think the women's game will ever attract the nastiest right-wing/violent elements that come to men's football, because those people don't acknowledge women as people, but as it gets more "serious" and profitable, it will likely become more corporate, more expensive, less affordable for families, etc.

                                                And it will just be less friendly overall. For example, US women's high school and college coaches are under a lot of the same pressures men's coaches. It's not as relentless and not in the media as much. And certainly, the sums of money at stake are lower. But it isn't just a celebration of female empowerment. They have to win to keep their jobs.*

                                                And we've seen in the US that girl's sports have fallen prey the same youth sports industrial complex stuff that boy's sports do, but it might even be worse because eating disorders are much more common in female athletes than male athletes (and more common in athletes overall than the population overall). I suspect women don't have as many issues with steroid abuse, however.


                                                * Although I've noticed that with women's coaches, they usually get let go at the end of a contract rather than bought out. In men's sports, it's increasingly common for a school to be willing to to pay a Pharaonic sum to fire a coach, per the buy-out clause in the contract, rather than accept mediocrity (or, in some cases, mere imperfection) for one day longer than the boosters can stomach it.

                                                Comment


                                                  Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission View Post
                                                  If all that had happened in a Premier League game, wouldn't you have been going on about the lack of sanction all being down to Brexit and toxic masculinity and Graeme Souness or something?
                                                  UK based ref Innit?

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