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The Final - Italy v England

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    Just watched the game again. I said on an earlier thread that Chiellini made we almost cry with joy. More so now. He has a touch of the John Marston from Red Dead Redemption about him - aged, fought a lot of battles, a fine beard, a sense of humour, and endless respawns that enable him to come again. That block on Sterling in extra time was astonishing. I want to cry again.

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      He is a special player and highly respected, however that horse collar slam on Saka was seriously chickenshit and a red card would not have been out of order.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWCkhXcLSdY

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        I complained a lot about Verratti the past week+ but it was his header that led to the Bonucci goal. My expectation would have been that he would have headed it down to himself and then made a sideways pass out of the box, so credit where credit is due.

        I didn't see that play as a red card. I know intent is a screwy way to assess a red card but there is clearly reckless behavior (e.g., a guy who has a full head of steam and slides into a tackle where it is guaranteed that the attacking player is going to be blasted) and this play where Jorghino stepped on the ball, which caused his spikes to slip off the ball. If he doesn't step on the ball, I don't think he even makes contact with Grealish. For me, the result (spikes into Grealish's thigh) is parallel to a ball hitting a knee and bouncing up to hit an arm. That's not a hand ball. I'm not equating the violence of the spikes in the thigh with a handball, but I'm saying that both guys went for the ball and one stepped on it. There is no way to control what happens aver the ball squibs away from the step. There is no way a handball happens without the ricochet.

        I don't spend much time reading post-game stuff. Has Southgate said anything about the teams tactics related to sitting back for 80+ minutes?

        On a personal note, I had a decent run where the team I picked before the tournament to win the tournament made it to the final and then lost. My pick for 2018 didn't get to the final or win (I think I had Argentina over Belgium), but I had Italy to beat France in the final and finally had the winner. Of course, I bet nothing on this so I only have a small smug sense of pride. Had I bet money, England would have won for sure.
        Last edited by danielmak; 13-07-2021, 03:57.

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          Originally posted by Cal Alamein View Post
          He is a special player and highly respected, however that horse collar slam on Saka was seriously chickenshit and a red card would not have been out of order.
          It would have been absolutely unwarranted in the laws of the game though.

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            It's my main memory of him in the final. Rather sours all the hero worship.

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              As for the pull-back, there's a debate there about whether we value the aesthetics and purity of the game, or doing whatever it takes to win. I think the pull-back is a blatant example of the latter, but all players do less blatant examples every game (calling for a throw-in when one knows one touched it last is the most banal example I can think of).

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                Sure, yeah, and all fouls are equal and what about (insert thing someone else did here). It was just very noticeable at the end of the game so it jars for me with all the mancrushing going on.

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                  Stewart Robson is very good analyzing the game (and on the violence and menace around the stadium) with Gab and Juls here:

                  https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR...AAAAAQAg&hl=en
                  Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 13-07-2021, 12:14.

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                    I'm with Pat Thistle - lasting impression of Chiellini is his professional foul.
                    He wasn't the only Italian player who indulged fouling gamesmanship.

                    The game was there for England to win had Southgate broken free of his Didier Deschamps syndrome.

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                      Yeah, but if you're an actual fan of Italy, Chiellini's foul is immediate and enduring cult. Imagine if it had been Maguire and England went on to win - for England fans it would have been the legendary, pivotal moment they won the tournament, and there'd have been memes and t-shirts and knowing sub-cultural references for the next half century.

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                        Originally posted by john the revelator View Post
                        He wasn't the only...player who indulged fouling gamesmanship.

                        Fixed that for you.

                        Chiellini's tug back was one of the highlights of the tournament for me, it nearly reduced me to tears with it's beautuful simplicity.

                        Lesser defenders, nay lesser men, on seeing a fleet-footed 19 year old skip past their 36 year old body on the halfway line in the last minute of a final would have kicked out or taken some other action that might have seriously harmed his opponent. Giorgio merely grabbed him by the collar with a "Dove pensi di andare?" and placed him on the ground

                        Seriously, any defender in the tournament would have done the same or worse, if they could have.

                        Edit : Alternately, what imp said.
                        Last edited by Ray de Galles; 13-07-2021, 14:02.

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                          Originally posted by imp View Post
                          Yeah, but if you're an actual fan of Italy, Chiellini's foul is immediate and enduring cult. Imagine if it had been Maguire and England went on to win - for England fans it would have been the legendary, pivotal moment they won the tournament, and there'd have been memes and t-shirts and knowing sub-cultural references for the next half century.
                          Exactly that. I love a good cynical foul personally.

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                            I have no issue with Chiellini's foul, but then I also have no issue with Suarez's handball against Ghana.

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                              Ghanaian Morata should have put that penalty away.

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                                Must admit that when I saw Chiellini's foul, my first thought was "15 yard penalty and automatic first down". As others have said, if it had been an England player no-one would've minded one bit and probably would have been a source of amusement/fun for years to come.

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                                  Originally posted by Ray de Galles View Post
                                  Lesser defenders, nay lesser men, on seeing a fleet-footed 19 year old skip past their 36 year old body in the last minute of a final would have kicked out or taken some other action that might have seriously harmed his opponent. Giorgio merely grabbed him by the collar with a "Dove pensi di andare?" and placed him on the ground
                                  Erm, there is a reason why a horse-collar tackle is a serious foul in American Football, as has been alluded to. And that is precisely because yanking on someone's collar as they run away from you like that comes with a risk of serious injury for the person fouled. That isn't just speculation, it is something that has happened in the other sport on multiple occasions. It hasn't in Football just because fouls like that don't happen in Football. Merely kicking Saka would have had less risk of damaging him than what Chiellini did. As such there would have been a strong justification if the ref had sent Chiellini off for it, as deliberate action with excessive force that endangered the safety of an opponent (the laws don't define type x of foul = yellow, type y = red, but instead assess by this risk-based rationale).

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                                    If Chielini had just hit row Z with the ball instead of trying to shepherd it, he wouldn't have left himself with that problem.

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                                      Originally posted by Janik View Post
                                      Erm, there is a reason why a horse-collar tackle is a serious foul in American Football, as has been alluded to. And that is precisely because yanking on someone's collar as they run away from you like that comes with a risk of serious injury for the person fouled. That isn't just speculation, it is something that has happened in the other sport on multiple occasions. It hasn't in Football just because fouls like that don't happen in Football. Merely kicking Saka would have had less risk of damaging him than what Chiellini did. As such there would have been a strong justification if the ref had sent Chiellini off for it, as deliberate action with excessive force that endangered the safety of an opponent (the laws don't define type x of foul = yellow, type y = red, but instead assess by this risk-based rationale).
                                      I would guess that the risk of serious injury in gridiron stems from the danger presented by the equipment involved, specifically the pads and helmet. The worst thing a football shirt is likely to do is tear.

                                      You really think there was any risk to Saka from what Chiellini did? He put him on his arse, no more. He actually holds the shirt long enough so that Saka is almost placed down on the ground and Saka hasn't built up enough momentum to make it more violent. Come on, we all know it's a yellow.

                                      What I had forgotten was Verratti appealing for handball afterwards because Saka's hand flew up and touched the ball after being grabbed. Nice touch.

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                                        There were dozens of deliberate fouls to break up attacks during every game of this Euros. The Chiellini one was just the most obvious. Normally Danny Murphy, Jermaine Jenas or whoever's co-commenator chuckles and says "taking one for the team".

                                        There's clearly an issue with the sport when deliberately fouling someone is the best course of action you can take.

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                                          Originally posted by Ray de Galles View Post
                                          I would guess that the risk of serious injury in gridiron stems from the danger presented by the equipment involved, specifically the pads and helmet. The worst thing a football shirt is likely to do is tear.

                                          You really think there was any risk to Saka from what Chiellini did? He put him on his arse, no more. He actually holds the shirt long enough so that Saka is almost placed down on the ground and Saka hasn't built up enough momentum to make it more violent. Come on, we all know it's a yellow.
                                          Nope, exactly nothing to do with the equipment. It is knee injuries mostly. Anterior and medial cruciate ligament rips are the big risk. Multi-year injuries have been sustained. Precisely because being put on your arse by having your neck yanked backwards out-of-the-blue whilst sprinting forwards is hugely unnatural and places large strains on the legs - full body weight suddenly going through at a deeply unnatural angle. And yes, what Chiellini did was dangerous to Saka as well as cynical and as such comfortable grounds for a red.
                                          Last edited by Janik; 13-07-2021, 15:36.

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                                            I'm with Janik. I can't believe how many of you cynical bastards are OK with it and/or would be happy to go along with it had an England player/player of your team of choice done it. It would still have been a dangerous or at least cynical, censure-worthy act regardless of who did it. And Suarez can still go fuck himself for that handball professional foul against Ghana, there's no statute of limitations on that as far as I'm concerned.

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                                              Suarez's handball was delightfully cynical as a professional infringement and great bit of game-playing where nobody was put at risk of physical harm (a rarity for Suarez). Chiellini's shirt grab looked genuinely dangerous to my eyes. If he'd grabbed any other part of the shirt it would have been a brilliant cynical professional foul and a thing of joy.

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                                                Its seems Chiellini committed an even more heinous crime during the penalty shoot-out. He placed an Argentinian curse on Saka as he walked up to take his kick. Sure worthy of a lifetime ban?

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                                                  Originally posted by Janik View Post
                                                  Nope, exactly nothing to do with the equipment. It is knee injuries mostly. Anterior and medial cruciate ligament rips are the big risk. Multi-year injuries have been sustained. Precisely because being put on your arse by having your neck yanked backwards out-of-the-blue whilst sprinting forwards is hugely unnatural and places large strains on the legs - full body weight suddenly going through at a deeply unnatural angle. And yes, what Chiellini did was dangerous to Saka as well as cynical and as such comfortable grounds for a red.
                                                  This is a fair point you raise. The only time I've broken a bone was when I'd broken the defensive line in our inter-tutor rugby tournament when I was 15. I was 5 yards from scoring the winning try when I was yanked by the collar and landed on my right shoulder, breaking my collarbone. I'd completely forgotten about that until your post.

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                                                    After getting some time away from the game and then going back to it, I think I'm fairly comfortable in terms of sussing out what happened tactically, at least in the most basic sense.

                                                    Mancini set up Italy deep and narrow, with the intention of guarding against England's speedy attackers, which would be a pretty good plan against the 4-3-3 that England had played most of the tournament. Only Southgate instead came out with the 3-4-3, I think primarily as a defensive tactic; however, it worked out extremely well because it enabled Shaw and Trippier as wingbacks to push up high in a way that the fullbacks in England's back four generally didn't. Suddenly the Italian back line was caught with a huge amount of space in front of it, where Kane was allowed to drop and then play passes out wide, where the wingbacks were running free. Obviously this led directly to the first goal, with Shaw playing it to Kane to Trippier to Shaw, and it really should have been more.

                                                    Instead, England only got the one, and Mancini responded relatively quickly by moving the Italian defensive line higher up the pitch and stretched it wider, to allow the Italian fullbacks to pick up the wingbacks when they got forward and to get more coverage from the midfield on the space that Kane was dropping into. Crucially, Southgate did not appear to respond to this at all. On one hand, England had the lead and therefore had no immediate need to do anything other than defend. On the other hand, this wasn't a situation of a minnow fluking a goal against a bigger team and then having to turtle. England have a very good team and the best bench at the tournament and had the potential to respond tactically -- the space was still there, just behind two aging Italian CBs. They could have used the players on the pitch on the time, by dropping Mount into a midfield three, then playing Kane as more of a traditional nine running off the shoulder and Sterling drifting around. Or bring on Sancho or Rashford off the bench (or both!) and get these direct, pacy players running at the Italian defense. Instead it was cross your fingers and hope Italy doesn't score, which they inevitably did.

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