The Final - Italy v England

[Satchmo Distel]

Yes, the German teams of 1990 and 1996 and this Italian one are the best three, and I thought Italy played better last night than the Germans in those games (both of which England marginally shaded perhaps). Pirlo in 2012 deserves a shout but that England side was poor.

The teams that eliminated England in open play in a QF or SF this century - Brazil 2002, Croatia 2018 - are obviously in that bracket. Quite similar England performances in the 3 games (2002, 2018, 2021), starting well but then surrendering midfield. Italy would obviously have won had they had comparable strikers to those sides.

[Bruno]

The ease with which they pass and move is still streets ahead of, say, England.

This was the most obvious difference between the two teams last night. There's probably too much talk about individual talent at the expense of tactics. I was puzzled why England didn't try to regain possession in the second half. Italy attacked immediately when they lost possession, and they played narrow to keep possession. This kept them in the game.

Italy's poorest showing against Spain was arguably explained by Spain dominating possession, so Italy had to adapt. Fortunately they're great in defense. I might have given Bonucci or Chiellini player of the tournament over Donnarumma.

[RobW]

Last night was all to similar to watching Blackpool v Lincoln in the play off final. Get incredibly early goal, look solid and on top for 10-15 minutes, don't get a crucial second goal and then struggle to create any notable chances.

Was very impressed with Rice last night, he skipped past a few Italian players on more than once occasion and looked very comfortable in the first half. God knows what was said at HT but England just sat so deep the equaliser was inevitable. Sadly the subs didn't make nearly enough impact, and Jorginho was very lucky to stay on the pitch imo. Can't begrudge the result, the Italians deserved it, but awful way to lose.

Really enjoyed the Eder cameo last night.

[Bruno]

The referee consultant on ESPN had no hesitation saying Jorginho's foul was not a red card.

[Snake Plissken]

I thought that he was going for and got enough of the ball for it not to be red. Him catching Grealish with his studs after was unfortunate and accidental.

[Sheep]

The yellow seemed fair.

[Kevin S]

James Maddison is my 'what if' but I doubt that Southgate would have put him in even if fully fit. Another creative midfielder who passed through Norwich City: he's the Hoolahan to Southgate's Trapattoni.

[Janik]

Maddison never regained his form after injury late in the season. Prior to that he was on the fringes of the squad and could have pushed his way in. Maybe. That Sotuhgate is willing to pick Grealish suggests there is hope for a player of Maddison's type not to be overlooked, as long as he is fully fit and firing.

If we are talking Leicester players who might have added something to the squad but for injury, I would note Harvey Barnes name ahead of Maddison's. For all England's strengths (which are plentiful), genuine wingers are thinner on the ground than some other positions. Though given how underused Jaydon Sancho was, Barnes may not have got on the pitch even if he had been in pre-injury form.

[delicatemoth]

Yeah, I don't think any Leicester fans were surprised or miffed that Maddison wasn't picked, 'fitful' is the word that best describes his season.

[Levin]

https://twitter.com/_AndrewAngus/status/1414569504416296963

[Ray de Galles]

https://twitter.com/johnbennettbbc/status/1414476615640305668?s=21

[Bermuda Iron]

I thought that he was going for and got enough of the ball for it not to be red. Him catching Grealish with his studs after was unfortunate and accidental.

The ref can’t mind read and ‘know’ a players intention, he should only judge by what he sees. Reckless (acting with disregard to the danger to an opponent and YC) vs excessive (player exceeds the necessary force and/or endangers the safety of an opponent and RC). Jorginho came in with a straight leg and studs down with a lot of force. Refs are taught to look at force, intensity and point of contact (in this case studs coming down hard onto the knee I think). Grealish couldn’t get out of the way of the challenge. Whether he got the ball first is relativity immaterial; it is the force and intensity of the challenge and contact that is taken into consideration. I was surprised that VAR didn’t ask the ref to look at the monitor for a potential red card.

[Ray de Galles]

Great angle on Italian celebrations and English devastation here :

https://twitter.com/bbcmotd/status/1414553097796456449?s=21

[anton pulisov]

The ref can’t mind read and ‘know’ a players intention, he should only judge by what he sees. Reckless (acting with disregard to the danger to an opponent and YC) vs excessive (player exceeds the necessary force and/or endangers the safety of an opponent and RC). Jorginho came in with a straight leg and studs down with a lot of force. Refs are taught to look at force, intensity and point of contact (in this case studs coming down hard onto the knee I think). Grealish couldn’t get out of the way of the challenge. Whether he got the ball first is relativity immaterial; it is the force and intensity of the challenge and contact that is taken into consideration. I was surprised that VAR didn’t ask the ref to look at the monitor for a potential red card.

Both of them were sliding in though. This isn't a case of one standing and the other sliding in (Danielson vs Sweden).

[Sean of the Shed]

I think you'll find that arguing with the ref is also a yellow card offence too, anton. Watch it sonny!

[Ray de Galles]

All this talk about Jorginho's foul reminds me that I never could find a video of Kalvin Phillips' one on Kroos that many deemed to be worthy of a red.

[Simon G]

As painful as losing on penalties was, Italy were very much deserved winners and I did get the consolation of winning my family's sweepstake.

England's start was fantastic and the 10 minutes or so after they really were on top, but you couldn't help feeling that if Italy rode that then they would turn it around. With that being said, even though it had been coming for a while, I was really disappointed with how scrappy the Italy goal was. If you're beaten by a bit of genius then you accept it a lot more easily.

Regarding the penalties, I think I celebrated the Jorginho save more than I did Shaw's goal, but almost instantaneously I was hit with the fact we had to score. Then watching Saka walk up (and it really could have been any of the others stepping up) I'd accepted he was going to miss and my first thought when he did was "that's going to bring the knuckledraggers out in force isn't it" and almost immediately I didn't care that England had lost.

I still support England. I'll still hope they win the World Cup next year, and the Euros in 2024. Being at my cousin's last night and watching it with the next generation of my family, aged 1-14, was fantastic. But fuck all those wankpuffins who claim to support that team but can't wait to jump on their back, or boo an anti-racist gesture pretending it's political. And the assholes who can't handle their drink and end up wrecking all and sundry. They're the reason we don't deserve nice things as England fans and I think I accept that now.

[anton pulisov]

Well put sir. I hope the 1-14 year olds weren't too upset.

[Bermuda Iron]

Both of them were sliding in though. This isn't a case of one standing and the other sliding in (Danielson vs Sweden).

Not denying that Anton, just pointing out the considerations the ref has to take in to account in challenges such as this. "He was going for the ball" and "he got a piece of the ball" are not part of the decision making process (or shouldn't be), intention is not part of the laws. Players will always say they are going for the ball. Also not saying it was a definite red, the question always should be was the challenge reckless or excessive, taking into account speed, force and point of contact - you decide! Danielson's challenge was as clear a red card as you will see, no disputes there! In fact, both video clips will be used in upcoming technical sessions as teaching and discussion points. Watching the Phillips challenge on Kroos, that to me is a red card, using the considerations (straight leg challenge, lots of downward force, studs making contact with the shin). In both the Phillips and Jorginho challenges, I remain surprised VAR 4th official didn't request the ref take another look (or perhaps they did and the ref turned the offer down).

[ooh aah]

My recollection is that the Phillips one wasn't reviewed, and I agree, it should have been a red. Jorginho's wasn't reviewed either, was it?

[Ray de Galles]

Does anyone have video of the Phillips one, can't seem to find any.

[ursus arctos]

My search has also come up empty

Nothing on Twitter

A YouTube hit that is a couple of stills

And all of the embeds on Reddit have been disabled

[Cesar Rodriguez]

The Jorginho foul seemed a yellow but no more. It was a 50-50 ball and he was beaten to the ball ever so slightly by Grealish. Would have been a very harsh red.

[Erskine Bridges]

Apologies if someone else has mentioned this but re Sterling not taking a penalty, I suspect he did a risk/reward calculation in his head and came up with the ‘no brainer’ answer.

He has been villified throughout his career by the media , and hence, much of the English public, for daring to be a young, incredibly talented black man who spends his money.

A lot of pundits didn’t want him in the team but he proved to be England’s best, most effective player(IMO) and drove the team to the final.

If he’d taken a penalty and scored, it would have been expected. If he’d missed, everything he’d achieved in the tournament would have been forgotten and he’d have been vilified again.

I really don’t blame him.

[Uncle Ethan]

I got the impression that VAR checks ere undertaken, but not in the "hey look at us we are VAR" manner of the premier league. A look and a word in the ref's ear, game moving on.

We can always argue about this incident or that but fair to say the refereeing in this tournament was extremely good. The games flowed, overreactions to challenges was ignored and the usual warping of knockout games by suspensions was minimal. Of course there always be someone determined to say a particular call was wrong, but overall refs were top class.