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Cym on Den!! The first game in the round of 16

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    Poland started in St Petersburg, went to Seville, then came back to St Petersburg. Switzerland started in Baku, went to Rome, then came back to Baku and are now in Buchurest. Yes, the venues and scheduling are a nonsense, but Wales did at least get to play two successive games at one venue.

    About Kieffer Moore, ever since I saw the game with Slovakia in Trnava, I've been impressed with how Wales use him, ie as one point of their attack, but not the only one. His movement and play on the ground are good too ; he isn't just a big guy who threatens in the air. The problem yesterday was more that a fairly simple tactical switch by the Danes neutralised Bale and Ramsey.

    I'd also have a similar worry to the long-standing one I have about Slovakia ; that the younger generation of players need to step up more consistently. Daniel James, for example, was anonymous yesterday. Williams, Brooks and Wilson all came on as subs and contributed nothing but basic mistakes and fouls.

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      Denmark were always going to get some predictable neutral support:

      His Granny's Kobenhavn but great granda Castleblayney
      Ooh Thomas Delaney
      Berries for breakfast and Guinness for tea
      Digi la la lee

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          I feel that Page is using Moore differently to how Giggs did. My memory of watching what little I did of the Nations League games is that it was a lot less direct and physical.

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            Originally posted by Ray de Galles View Post
            Beaten by a far better side on the day, though I think the 0-2 scoreline it was heading for until those last mad few minutes would have been a fairer reflection of the game than 0-4.
            Hmm, not sure about that. (Maybe 0-3 would’ve reflected best.) Wales were pretty shocking, it must be said.

            Agree that the officiating was poor, however.

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              Originally posted by Janik View Post
              The VAR system was used right, if it wasn't used at all on the second goal. Play that took place in the opposite half of the field, with possession swapping back and forth between the sides at least twice more prior to the relevant action is way too far removed to be open to VAR considering - it's a completely different phase of play, VAR can only consider incidents in the phase that included the goal/penalty/sending-off offence. The ref on the field got it wrong (clearly), but VAR isn't used and above all shouldn't be used on something that takes place so far dissociated from a goal. If that was allowed (it's not), we could likely found some foul or other not given to a conceding team in just about every goal there is.
              There is no reason whatsoever why VAR can't be used to inform the referee that a foul has been committed at the time, or shortly after, rather than waiting however long until a break in play. If VAR was used properly a foul would have been awarded before the goal had even been scored, thus rendering your objections completely moot. All that is required is prompt communication between video and on field officials. This happens in other sports, such as rugby union, and it works well. The only reason isn't being used in this way is because UEFA decided they didn't want to use it that way. Hence my statement that it isn't being used properly.

              This is one of the reasons why I was dubious about VAR, not because of the principle of it, but simply because I just knew that the arrogance, stubbornness and incompetence of football administrators would result in entirely arbitrary sets of rules governing the thing which would, as it did in rugby, take 15 years to fucking sort out.

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                Originally posted by ooh aah View Post

                There is no reason whatsoever why VAR can't be used to inform the referee that a foul has been committed at the time, or shortly after, rather than waiting however long until a break in play. If VAR was used properly a foul would have been awarded before the goal had even been scored, thus rendering your objections completely moot.
                So you want every decision during a game reviewed by VAR, and the game stopped and reset whenever the ref makes a mistake??? Because that is what you are suggesting, and it's just utterly ludicrous. If you want an improper use of VAR, your suggestion here of how it might work (and saved Wales yesterday) is about the worst it's possible to conceive of.

                VAR must only be used for big decisions like goals, sending offs or penalties if it isn't to absolutely destroy the game (if it isn't doing that already!). For that, there has to be a realistic limit to scope. That limit is one 'phase of play'. And however you try and swing it, the non-called foul on Moore was not in the same phase of play as Dolberg's goal.

                Rugby's TMO has the same restriction on one phase of play, of course. And a similar restriction to only reviewing tries or incidents of serious foul play. If the ref misses a bog standard penalty in the other half that took place before possession has been regained for a move that led to a try, then Rugby's TMO gets no more involved in 'righting' that than yesterday's TV officials were.
                Last edited by Janik; 27-06-2021, 10:36.

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                  I want clear and obvious mistakes to be rectified. It was pretty clearly a foul, would have taken very little time for the VAR team to review and the game could have been stopped much earlier, during that phase of play. If it takes any longer than one quick viewing then it isn't an obvious mistake, and you keep playing. Rugby's TMO communicates with the onfield ref during the game in order to keep such reviews within the one phase limit. It could be done, without the 'end of football as we know it' concerns, but that would require some thought on how to make it work, and the people making such decisions think it's a good idea to send two teams from W.Europe half way to China during a global pandemic, to play group games in an empty stadium in a country that didn't even qualify, so my hopes aren't high

                  The foul in question was also a heavier foul, in a more attacking part of the field than the one Rodon got booked for, so there was, by that referees own standards, a potential yellow card to look at too, which has an impact beyond that one game. A similar thing happened in the Italy game where Dan James committed a foul that I thought was a possible red, but was completely missed and not reviewed, while Ampadu got sent off for a lesser challenge. So, these aren't isolated incidents. VAR has been with us now for around 5 years, and it still isn't rectifiying clear mistakes, but is mostly used to see whether the hairs on a forwards knee are offside or not.

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                    Originally posted by ooh aah View Post
                    I want clear and obvious mistakes to be rectified.
                    There are probably double figures worth of those in any game of Football, refs and assistants being humans. Having VAR look at every single one would destroy the spectacle by having constant stoppages and lots of 15 seconds bursts of phantom play that happen between the missed incident and even an ultra-quick review being conducted.

                    Originally posted by ooh aah View Post
                    The foul in question was also a heavier foul, in a more attacking part of the field than the one Rodon got booked for, so there was, by that referees own standards, a potential yellow card to look at too.
                    Yellow cards are not reviewable. Again, because there are plenty of such calls in any game of Football (yellows given or potential yellow card-worthy fouls for which no card is shown) so reviewing each would also be totally disruptive.

                    VAR needs to be less involved in Football, not vastly more so.
                    Last edited by Janik; 27-06-2021, 11:24.

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                      Ok, so you either make it work consistently, which they haven't even tried, or get rid of it. I'm happy either way, but not with an inconsistent, frustrating half way house.

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                        Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post

                        The interviewer asked him about his future plans and he just knocked the mic away and walked off.
                        Luckily I saw nothing of the coverage after the final whistle as I had to shoot off to Wembley and, frankly, wasn't in the mood.

                        I wanted to say this though, post-match interviews with sportspeople are bullshit and have absolutely nothing to do with sport itself.

                        Naomi Osaka has the right idea and all athletes should follow her, stop shoving mics in their faces right after they've spent hours competing because it achieves nothing of value.
                        Last edited by Ray de Galles; 27-06-2021, 11:54.

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                          Originally posted by Ray de Galles View Post
                          I wanted to say this though, post-match interviews with sportspeople are bullshit and have absolutely nothing to do with sport itself.

                          Naomi Osaka has the right idea and all athletes should follow her, stop shoving mics in their faces right after they've spent hours competing because it achieves nothing of value.
                          I agree with that absolutely.

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                            Originally posted by Ray de Galles View Post

                            Luckily I saw nothing of the coverage after the final whistle as I had to shoot off the Wembley and, frankly, wasn't in the mood.

                            I wanted to say this though, post-match interviews with sportspeople are bullshit and have absolutely nothing to do with sport itself.

                            Naomi Osaka has the right idea and all athletes should follow her, stop shoving mics in their faces right after they've spent hours competing because it achieves nothing of value.
                            We had exactly the same opinion on the Roland Garros thread. It's all about getting a controversial response from someone who is really not in the best frame of mind to give it for a cheap talking point and Internet hits.

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                              Originally posted by Janik View Post
                              VAR must only be used for big decisions like goals, sending offs or penalties if it isn't to absolutely destroy the game (if it isn't doing that already!)
                              It isn't. There are teething problems, but in general VAR leads to more fairness and yes I do know only a handful of posters here agree with me.

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                                Except it was press conferences later the same day that Osaka wanted out of, not on court interviews. And it wasn't about the sort of questions asked, but more that she is shy so hates being sat up there in front of a load of people there to interrogate her. A one-to-one interview on court is easier to cope with.

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                                  Originally posted by Janik View Post
                                  Except it was press conferences later the same day that Osaka wanted out of, not on court interviews. And it wasn't about the sort of questions asked, but more that she is shy so hates being sat up there in front of a load of people there to interrogate her. A one-to-one interview on court is easier to cope with.
                                  The style of interview is not the issue, it's the fact that the losing player or manager is expected to answer questions that range from banal through to intentional trip up when they are emotionally and physically in no condition to deal with it. It's just a shitty thing to do to them.

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                                    I'm seeing a lot of self-criticism from Wales fans (not particularly here) but to me it looked like they ran out of steam and were up against a side that has to be a solid bet to reach the final. Denmark feel a lot like Croatia in 2018 - looking at the six teams remaining in that half of the draw and I reckon they should have no fear of any of them.

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                                      Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post

                                      I saw this earlier and just remembered to ask about it. Are the Danish government enacting racist policies, or is it something she's said personally?

                                      Hi, I saw this first now. If you still wonder Mette Fredriksen makes my blood boil for reasons outlined below.

                                      The Social Democrats did well in the latest election in Denmark by pretty much doing
                                      a copy and paste of the far right-wing Dansk Folkeparti's immigration policies and adopting
                                      them as their own.

                                      This includes a deal with Rwanda to locate a "reception centre" (or a refugee camp) in Rwanda
                                      where asylum seekers to Denmark will be sent while they are waiting for their application of entrance
                                      to Denmark to be processed.

                                      Exactly how this is supposed to go about I am not fully certain. I think they still have to make their
                                      way to Denmark and then they will be sent to Rwanda from there. Possibly, refugees will have to go
                                      straight to Rwanda and apply for asylum to Denmark while there. Either way, it does not take much
                                      intelligence to see that the actual goal is to make Denmark as unattractive as possible for potential
                                      asylum seekers.

                                      Futhermore, they have toughened up the criterions for getting a Danish citizenship, excluding everyone
                                      with a criminal record, even for minor breaches of the law. Again, theuy fully know that newl°y arrived refugees
                                      are particularly at risk here, which is the underlying motivation for this.

                                      Finally, and worst of it all, Denmark has decided that there is no such thing as a war in Syria, and,
                                      along with Hungary, have started to send Syrian refugees back. There is no deal between Denmark and
                                      the Syrian government about this, indeed Denamrk does not even recognise Assad's regime as legitimate.
                                      Thus, they can not guarantee for the safety of the refugees they are sending back. No other
                                      democracies considers it safe to return refugees to Syria, nor do the UN, rather the contrary.

                                      These are the policies of a so-called centre-left government. The complete and utter betrayal of left-wing
                                      ideas of right or wrong carried about by these bastards is really really depressing.
                                      Last edited by Belhaven; 27-06-2021, 13:52.

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                                        Originally posted by Sean of the Shed View Post

                                        The style of interview is not the issue, it's the fact that the losing player or manager is expected to answer questions that range from banal through to intentional trip up when they are emotionally and physically in no condition to deal with it. It's just a shitty thing to do to them.
                                        Possibly. But that is a different issue from what Osaka has said she particularly struggles with, which is the bank of anonymous journalists grilling her, and her knowledge that this is coming up. And the trouble isn't around talking after defeats but includes pressers after wins (mostly after wins in her case). She doesn't work as a comparison point therefore, especially seeing as she did the post-match interview following the one match she played in Paris, same as normal.
                                        Last edited by Janik; 27-06-2021, 17:05.

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                                          To be clear, I don't think any of that circus is worthwhile - mics stuck in athletes noses second after competing or press conferences hours after the match/during off days in international tournaments.

                                          I've can't think of one example of any of them that have really added to my experience of or knowledge about sport. They are spurious soundbite fests.

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                                            The Ben Mee interview after that Burnley game with the plane banner incident was good, but yes agree that they're usually a complete waste of time for everyone

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                                              For any Welsh supporters still suffering from chronic post-tournament injustice, there's an interview in kicker this week with referee Daniel Siebert, including a very specific question:

                                              Kicker: For your three Euro games we twice gave you grade 2 [1 being best, 6 the worst], and a 3 for the round of 16 game, because the red card you gave Harry Wilson didn't really correspond to your liberal approach. Are you okay with that?

                                              Siebert: I opted for red because I judged it to be a revenge foul where the player [Wilson] had no chance of playing the ball. When you look at the replays, then you can certainly say that a yellow would not have been a wrong decision.

                                              There you go. Closure.

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                                                Did they ask him about the foul on Kieffer Moore he ignored in the build up to Denmark's crucial second goal?

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                                                  Yeah looking back through the thread there's no real complaints about the Wilson red card. There's a salient point from Simon G about the way the ref treated Kieffer and that's about it.

                                                  I think the consensus on the day was that Cymru were well beaten by a team that capitalised on their mistakes and created some great goals as well.

                                                  I mean it's interesting (and rare) to hear a ref admit he could have done something differently but it wouldn't have made much of a difference if he had only given a yellow. Wales were out by then.

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                                                    It will make a difference when Wilson's ban is being served.

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