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It's 1870 and 1982 all over again - France v Germany

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    Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post

    Similarly, the technology isn't perfect on LBWs or snicks, so we are being given the illusion of certainty over something that is still debatable, as shown by recent changes regarding umpire's call. Where to draw the line is still a subjective choice, just as it is with expected position for handballs and which body parts count towards offside, and how VAR can override the line official's ruling for offside when it's very marginal rather than a clear and obvious error but that same power is not given VAR for other marginal decisions, which stay with the ref. Why didn't VAR ask the ref to have a look at the alleged bite or the challenge that knocked out a player or the supposedly accidental boot to the face? If the ref's decision stands in those cases, without even requiring the ref take a second look, why have VAR for offsides?
    The stated difference between offside and fouls for pushing and so on is that pushes are a subjective decision that is on the refs interpretation of whether the contact was enough to impede. But offside is objective - a player is either onside or offside, there is no judgement call for officials to make if players are offside enough for it to count. 1mm offside is therefore a ‘clear and obvious error’ as it’s a decision that is 100% wrong, whilst a foul call might only be called differently by 75% of refs (i.e. it’s an arguable decision rather than clearly and obviously wrong one).
    The problem with this argument is it ignores measurement error (see also Hawkeye in Tennis) and falsely assumes infinite accuracy of the technology. But the underlying logic that says the VAR protocol will be different for offside than other fouls is sound.

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      Reports saying Pavard was unconscious for 10-15 seconds. Played on anyway

      Fucks sake.

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        Originally posted by Fussbudget View Post
        Does it matter? Is it so important that every decision is 100% correct (which will never be achieved even with VAR anyway) if it destroys the rhythm of the game and gives us those weird unreal passages of play as Satchmo described?
        In this case, yes, I believe it does. Fewer offside flags, particularly fewer wrong offside flags taking good attacking opportunities away makes the game a better spectacle. This particular protocol is a rare one for VAR as it benefits attackers. The second Ronaldo goal (which will have been checked by VAR because every goal is, so I’m going to assume was proven as onside after all) being a prime example. Lots of people saw it as offside and an assistant could have done likewise. In a sport where three scores in a game is above average, then every decision around a possible goal has a high potential to change the final result. These calls really do need to be as good as they can possibly be.

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          Before VAR I think the lino would have instinctively flagged Ronaldo as being offside before he rounded the keeper. In the France game I think he would have flagged Benzema as the ball went forward for the third goal as he was ahead of Mbappe and moving towards the goal.

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            Originally posted by anton pulisov View Post
            Reports saying Pavard was unconscious for 10-15 seconds. Played on anyway

            Fucks sake.
            It was obvious he was unconscious by the way he was lying after going down. I was surprised he stood up let alone played on.

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              The linesman may as well not flag for offside at all, considering that every offside decision is checked by VAR.

              Main problem I have with VAR is that no margin of error has been defined, even though there clearly is one. They should define the margin of error, and if a play is within the margin of error, then go with the decision on the field. Then the linesman still has an actual purpose.

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                Arguing about VAR is a waste of time. Some people think it improves football, some people think it makes it much worse. It's clear that no one is going to switch from one viewpoint to the other.

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                  Janik has just changed my mind on this, from anti to pro, so there's a counter-example.

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                    Hmm I'm actually saying that the implementation of VAR could be improved, not that it should be abolished.

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                      I would rather it be dropped (and fervently hope it can be prevented from encroaching on other levels of football) but, given that's sadly not going to happen, I'm fine discussing how it is implemented and why tournaments like the World Cup and Euros seem to have done so more effectively than the PL.
                      Last edited by Ray de Galles; 16-06-2021, 08:50.

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                        Originally posted by Ray de Galles View Post
                        and fervently hope it can be prevented from encroaching on other levels of football
                        God, yes, this. So much this. So very, very much this.

                        And let's not get promoted, just in case.

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                          The requisite infrastructure investment is quite significant, so I don't think that is much of a real threat (see also DRS in club cricket).

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                            It's unlikely to get all the way down the pyramid, but I'd not be hugely surprised to see it in the second division some time.

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                              When it was introduced someone listed how many different camera positions were needed to be accurate judging offsides, and I think that was the most likely factor against its use in smaller grounds (both in terms of cost and actual physical positioning of cameras in more ramshackle stadia).

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                                If only we had a ramshackle stadium, we'd be safe.

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                                  Originally posted by Fussbudget View Post
                                  Does it matter? Is it so important that every decision is 100% correct (which will never be achieved even with VAR anyway) if it destroys the rhythm of the game and gives us those weird unreal passages of play as Satchmo described?
                                  Oh, spot on!

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                                    Originally posted by TonTon View Post
                                    It's unlikely to get all the way down the pyramid, but I'd not be hugely surprised to see it in the second division some time.
                                    This sounds right to me, though it is worth remembering that the English Second Division operates at a level (in terms of budgets, attendance, television coverage, etc.) that would be the envy of top flight clubs in most other countries.

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                                      Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post

                                      It was obvious he was unconscious by the way he was lying after going down. I was surprised he stood up let alone played on.

                                      It was obvious he was out cold before he even hit the ground.

                                      I thought that any period of unconsciousness meant that a player had to be substituted. I guess not.

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                                        So much for the "lessons learned" from Christoph Kramer in the 2014 World Cup Final or Morocco's Nordin Amrabat against Portugal in 2018. The very real risks are simply not being taken seriously at the very top level of the sport.

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                                          Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission View Post


                                          It was obvious he was out cold before he even hit the ground.

                                          I thought that any period of unconsciousness meant that a player had to be substituted. I guess not.
                                          Aren't rugby-style "concussion substitutes" (where the change can be reversed if a player passes a ten minute head injury assessment) coming in soon or being trialled somewhere?

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                                            Yes (they were trialed in the Premier League in the spring), but that didn't help Pavard yesterday.

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                                              Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post

                                              This sounds right to me, though it is worth remembering that the English Second Division operates at a level (in terms of budgets, attendance, television coverage, etc.) that would be the envy of top flight clubs in most other countries.
                                              Oh sure - it's just that that is the promotion we would be looking for, so it's directly relevant to me.

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                                                I realise that, but was trying to enable a broader discussion.

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                                                  Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                                  Yes (they were trialed in the Premier League in the spring), but that didn't help Pavard yesterday.
                                                  Absolutely, I was just sure the issue was being addressed albeit with the usual tardy attitude to player welfare that associations display.

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                                                    Originally posted by Ray de Galles View Post

                                                    Absolutely, I was just sure the issue was being addressed albeit with the usual tardy attitude to player welfare that associations display.

                                                    I'm not an expert on this, to put it mildly, but to be rendered unconscious by a blow would surely indicate a physical impact that could be exacerbated by further contact. The individual should be removed from that risk, assessed and treated. Letting Pavard play on was utterly reckless.

                                                    When I got knocked out playing football and then saw my GP the next day when I felt a bit ropey, he said that hairline fractures at the base of the skull often result from such impacts and packed me off to hospital for an x-ray.

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