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It's 1870 and 1982 all over again - France v Germany

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    Originally posted by elguapo4 View Post
    Are the French the only side other than England who use their national anthem as a chant?
    I'm sure I've heard Land of My Fathers alternating with Bread of Heaven in the course of Welsh matches.

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      Boiled frogs, that's what we're seeing here. Boiled frogs.

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        Why are you spending so much time and attention on something that upsets you so much?

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          I'm winding myself down after trying out watching a game and being genuinely gobsmacked at the shittery that it has become. It'll pass, I'll not bother again much, until next time I forget and trick myself into thinking it might be nice to watch a top level game.

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            Chanted rather than sung?

            Jon Champion made the crucial point that, with the non-flagging, we no longer know whether what we are watching is "real" or just being allowed to play out for no valid reason.* We find ourselves cheering for a goal that the officials already knew, several seconds in advance, they would not allow. We see a moment of genius from Mbappe that is really ourselves being deceived by the officials because what we think is a real moment is actually fake, even though the participants themselves might believe is real (but aren't quite sure).

            I can't think of any other sporting scenario where fans are placed in a state of suspended reality in that way, where what you're watching might be real or might be falsified by the linesman not raising a flag despite any goal already being invalid.

            *Even if no goal results you're denying the defending side the time to take a quick free kick.
            Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 15-06-2021, 21:23.

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              [to TonTon]

              Ah, good

              That sounds a healthy approach
              Last edited by ursus arctos; 15-06-2021, 21:26.

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                Originally posted by Foot of Astaire's View Post
                I'm struggling to understand these very late flags for offside. Mbappe gets the ball, runs around for a few minutes, then hits a worldy into the corner. THEN the flag goes up? Happened to Hungary earlier too. Why the delay? New rule or old rule I haven't noticed?
                There's four things that can happen when a linesman has to make a decision.

                1. There is an offside offence, and the linesman calls it offside. This is good. (Var Can check this)
                2. There is no offside offence, and the linesman doesn't call it. This is also good. (Var can check this)

                But there's two types of error
                3. There is an offside offence but the linesman doesn't call it. This is bad, but it is a mistake that VAR can catch at the end of the move. (this happened 32 times in the PL last season)
                4. There isn't an offside offence, but the linesman does call it, thereby prematurely ending a move that might end in a goal. Var can't do anything about his and the mistake can't be fixed.

                the last type of mistake can be avoided by making the decision at the end of the move. And seven off these offside flags were overturned in the PL last season.

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                  Satchmo,

                  It seems to me that the current contretemps over "soft signals" on possible catches in cricket is similar, in that the third umpire is only authorised to overturn the signal if s/he has "conclusive evidence" to the contrary, which everyone agrees is impossible given current technology.

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                    Absolutely, Satchmo.

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                      What I've found interesting is that commentators have to commentate on every goal (even the ones that are pretty likely offside) as if they are goals. I assume it's for highlights and montage packages at the end of tournaments. For example during the Wales game I was almost certain that the Swiss disallowed goal was offside so wasn't surprised to see it overturned, however the commentator didn't mention it at all until the replays.

                      I suppose they're told not to say "looks offside" straight after a goal. I guess they'd look very stupid if it wasn't.

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                        Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                        But there's two types of error
                        3. There is an offside offence but the linesman doesn't call it. This is bad, but it is a mistake that VAR can catch at the end of the move. (this happened 32 times in the PL last season)
                        4. There isn't an offside offence, but the linesman does call it, thereby prematurely ending a move that might end in a goal. Var can't do anything about his and the mistake can't be fixed.

                        the last type of mistake can be avoided by making the decision at the end of the move. And seven off these offside flags were overturned in the PL last season.
                        Does it matter? Is it so important that every decision is 100% correct (which will never be achieved even with VAR anyway) if it destroys the rhythm of the game and gives us those weird unreal passages of play as Satchmo described?

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                          And it doesn't stop debates anyway. Look at the discussions on the Hungary v Portugal thread about the third goal. I thought it must be offside, saw one replay and thought 'no, he was on' but other people saw the replays too and thought he was off. I've yet to see a definitive line across the pitch thingy.

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                            And even by TAB's stats, if I understand correctly, the damage without VAR would have been a maximum of 7 wrongly denied goals in a season (which assumes the striker would have scored in all 7 cases).

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                              And of course the line across the pitch thingy isn't definitive anyway

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                                On the basis of this game I think Portugal will beat Germany and France will beat Hungary. I reckon Germany might go out even if they beat Hungary.

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                                  Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                                  On the basis of this game I think Portugal will beat Germany and France will beat Hungary. I reckon Germany might go out even if they beat Hungary.
                                  Portugal only need a draw to go through, so it may be that Portugal and Germany play out a draw with Germany knowing they have Hungary in their last fixture.

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                                    Originally posted by mirko bolesan View Post
                                    What I've found interesting is that commentators have to commentate on every goal (even the ones that are pretty likely offside) as if they are goals. I assume it's for highlights and montage packages at the end of tournaments. For example during the Wales game I was almost certain that the Swiss disallowed goal was offside so wasn't surprised to see it overturned, however the commentator didn't mention it at all until the replays.

                                    I suppose they're told not to say "looks offside" straight after a goal. I guess they'd look very stupid if it wasn't.
                                    Someone should tell ronnie Whelan, he basically said that both french goals were offside before they hit the net, or just after. Then again he also said that pogba's pass to hernandez was an overhit cross to mbappe.

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                                      Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                      Satchmo,

                                      It seems to me that the current contretemps over "soft signals" on possible catches in cricket is similar, in that the third umpire is only authorised to overturn the signal if s/he has "conclusive evidence" to the contrary, which everyone agrees is impossible given current technology.
                                      Similarly, the technology isn't perfect on LBWs or snicks, so we are being given the illusion of certainty over something that is still debatable, as shown by recent changes regarding umpire's call. Where to draw the line is still a subjective choice, just as it is with expected position for handballs and which body parts count towards offside, and how VAR can override the line official's ruling for offside when it's very marginal rather than a clear and obvious error but that same power is not given VAR for other marginal decisions, which stay with the ref. Why didn't VAR ask the ref to have a look at the alleged bite or the challenge that knocked out a player or the supposedly accidental boot to the face? If the ref's decision stands in those cases, without even requiring the ref take a second look, why have VAR for offsides?
                                      Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 15-06-2021, 22:49.

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                                        Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                                        On the basis of this game I think Portugal will beat Germany and France will beat Hungary. I reckon Germany might go out even if they beat Hungary.
                                        That's an additional jeopardy of the Group of Death, as I mentioned with regard to Hungary: a win still probably leaves you with a negative GD, which probably puts you out, purely because the other 3rd placed teams are not facing Ronaldo, Mbappe etc in the last 15 minutes and shipping 3 or 4 goals.

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                                          Very strange game for me. I had my back to it because I was meeting with a very good friend whose wife died last month. I wanted to watch it, but doing so would've meant ignoring him, so I deliberately positioned myself in the pub with my back to the telly. I'm glad that I did, because talking to him was more important than any football match.

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                                            Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                                            And even by TAB's stats, if I understand correctly, the damage without VAR would have been a maximum of 7 wrongly denied goals in a season (which assumes the striker would have scored in all 7 cases).
                                            No it's seven goals that definitely were scored.

                                            Originally posted by Fussbudget View Post
                                            Does it matter? Is it so important that every decision is 100% correct (which will never be achieved even with VAR anyway) if it destroys the rhythm of the game and gives us those weird unreal passages of play as Satchmo described?
                                            But does it destroy the rhythm of the game? I mean you're talking about something that happens very rarely. I.e. a subset of the average of 4 offside decisions per game. leads to a delay in putting the flag up of a couple of seconds, (There's six seconds between the pogba pass, and mbappe scoring and the flag going up.

                                            but the vast majority of the time it doesn't result in a goal. What it usually results is play going on for a few seconds and a) the ball going dead, So instead of the goalkick or corner you think is going to happen, you're getting a free kick. or b) the attack slows down, and there isn't going to be a goal immediately, so the flag goes up. or c} the ball winds up in the possession of the defending team and often results in the game being allowed to carry on as the ref plays advantage. Given how long teams take over restarting the game, one advantage has a much bigger positive impact on the flow of the game, than 6 or 7 'unreal' periods of play.

                                            But this isn't new. This is what happened a lot of the time before linesmen had buzzers on their flags. If you watch old games, you don't have to watch too many of them to see fairly significant lapses of time before the ref notices that the linesman is waving his flag. The idea that a player scores a goal, starts celebrating and then eventually someone notices that the linesman has his flag up is not a new one. It used to be thought of as a glorious moment for all the football community to share in.

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                                              There is a similarity surely with NFL: player runs through and touches down but 'there's a flag on the play'

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                                                Though in that case the flag is thrown at the time of the infraction (though that may not be apparent to all viewers)

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                                                  Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
                                                  The late flag might be common but it's also ridiculous. If the linesman thinks it's offside why wait? And how long can he let play go on for before flagging? Can we have 5 minutes of tiki-taki around the box after an offside pass before someone scores and then he flags?
                                                  Why wait? Because the assistant ref might be mistaken.* If he or she flags immediately then the game will stop (or at least it should - imagine the arguments if an assistant put their flag up, the defence saw that and reacted to it, but the ref played on anyway just in case and a goal was scored). Once the game is stopped mid-flow, the situation for the attack is lost. Which, if they were onside, takes away a potential opportunity to score. Those don’t come around that often in Football games, and are worth preserving.

                                                  * - offside is stupidly difficult to get right in real time because of what the rule actually is. A literal impossibility for one person to do without them guessing/inferring in fact, as it involves looking at two different places at exactly the same time.

                                                  As for how long the wait can be, I believe the advice is one phase of play rather than a specific time limit. There was one last night where a player looked off, play initially went on, but then they checked back and passed backwards to recycle the ball - new phase, up immediately went the flag, free-kick to the defence.

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                                                    Those are good arguments, TAB and Janik, and I'm more on the fence than I was immediately after the game.

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