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    Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

    Following on a recent discussion on the Guardian website, I am wondering what the Board's views are on the statute of limitations for hating the MK Dons.

    Clearly, people feel it's too soon for rehabilitation, even though old trophies have been returned and new trophies won (no more "team without a history"). So, clearly, there's a floor of five years. On the other end of the scale, no one seriously thinks Arsenal's move across the London Sea is worth worrying about anymore, so the top end must be about 90-100 years.

    What's the minimum sentence for murder in the UK, 25 years? Should MK be punished as long as that? Longer? And is there anything they can do to get early parole?

    #2
    Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

    "On the other end of the scale, no one seriously thinks Arsenal's move across the London Sea is worth worrying about anymore, so the top end must be about 90-100 years."

    DING.

    You deserve everything you are going to get on this thread.

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      #3
      Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

      .

      It was a serious question.

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        #4
        Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

        That was a serious answer.

        There is simply no reason for anyone who feels strongly about the issue to accept the validity of a statute of limitations.

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          #5
          Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

          It wasn't just a serious answer, it was the correct answer.

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            #6
            Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

            I believe they can stop being hated once they fall back to where Milton Keynes City were in the league structure, and once AFC Wimbledon have got back up into the league. If that doesn't happen, then they remain forever illegitimate, having stolen the place of another club.

            While some people haven't forgiven Arsenal for their move, I think it doesn't fall into the same category as the league structure was much less formal in those days and they didn't steal their place at the expense of another team - their sneaky avoidance of relegaion is another matter.

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              #7
              Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

              It's already 13 years since Meadowbank were killed off and their grave robbed by Livingston, and no-one looks like forgiving the latter anytime soon.

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                #8
                Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

                There is simply no reason for anyone who feels strongly about the issue to accept the validity of a statute of limitations.
                So the effective statute of limitations is when these people die off?

                I mean, how likely is it that someone like my son, who was six when it happened (I think) is going to get worked up about this if he were ever to start paying attention to lower-division football? And should he be castigated by others for not getting worked up about it?

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                  #9
                  Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

                  Not very, and yes.

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                    #10
                    Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

                    I've hated teams for a lot longer for a lot less. I don't think they'll ever be a legitimate team in my eyes.

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                      #11
                      Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

                      Ursus minor knows that Franchise stole Wimbledon's place and took their trophies (just as he knows that Mussolini made Inter change its name). He has gotten worked up about both.

                      From where I sit having a sense of history is one of the most important aspects of being a football fan.

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                        #12
                        Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

                        Having a sense of history is all some fans have.

                        (Jeeves get that fucking taxi quickly!)

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                          #13
                          Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

                          There is an interesting issue though, is there any record of the reaction at the time to Arsenal's switch from Woolwich?

                          I am depressingly sure that there will be a statute of limitations on any significant objection to Franchise given the relative level of rehabilitation we are already seeing but taking (distance of move) x (history of original club) x (circumstances) I would think it's going to be the scores of years in the original question.

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                            #14
                            Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

                            I've heard a lot about the Arsenal move being bad, from the likes of, well, Spurs fans and GO mainly, but I know nothing of the circumstances. Anyone care to enlighten me?

                            As for the MK Scum, never forgive, never forget.

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                              #15
                              Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

                              I haven't studied the question in detail, but my sense is that there was much less reaction to Woolwich Arsenal's move across the river, largely due to the factors that blameless notes (as well as the slight distractions presented by contemporary events on the Continent). The 1919 shenanigans, on the other hand, were much more widely commented at the time, and not just by Tottenham types who believe(d) that all of the documents proving Arsenal's perfidy were hidden in the ball holding the cockerel on the top of the stand at WHL.

                              I'm sure that I am being overly legal about it, but saying that there will come a point when people don't care anymore and arguing for a "statute of limitations" are to me very different things. The first recognises that biased media reports, the general lack of attention to history, "spin" and the sheer demographics of generational change may well result in a distant future where there are few, if any, people left who care. The "statute of limitations", on the other hand, is a priniciple that states that there is a time after which the State is no longer allowed to care, at least to the extent of prosecuting the crime. It's also worth noting that the significant majority of criminal law jurisprudence sees the statute of limitations as a necessary recognition of procedural reality, and not as a positive value. Which is why we don't have statutes of limitations for murder or crimes against humanity.

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                                #16
                                Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

                                Yes , important difference I suppose.

                                What factors did blameless mention?

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                                  #17
                                  Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

                                  It was Etienne who posted about Arsenal (my contribution concerned Franchise Mk.1), but for what it's worth I agree with him.

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                                    #18
                                    Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

                                    Did Arsenal take someone elses league place? If so they/we should make reparations. (Although if we get put out tonight, you can all fuck off).

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                                      #19
                                      Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

                                      Sorry, Etienne. Gramsci got me fired up.

                                      Geron, the Arse didn't take anyone's place when they moved (they even played the first year north of the river while still being called Woolwich Arsenal). 1919, when they somehow managed to be elected to the First Division despite having finished fifth in the Second, is another story.

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                                        #20
                                        Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

                                        If in doubt, follow the money.

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                                          #21
                                          Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

                                          Gee, ursus, I think you overreacted a bit to Gramsci's phrasing/poor choice of analogy. You must be feeling strongly about MK Dons.

                                          I will never want MK Dons to win anything (except if they play against the usual suspects whom I hate even more). They are not a football club. And I am naturally strongly against the notion of franchising, which is what the move to Milton Keynes indisputably was.

                                          It's enough to see the idiotic franchising shenanigans that happen in South Africa, where teams like Plastic Ajax come into existence on the back of clubs with rich traditions like Cape Town Spurs, who had won the double just two years, I think, before being flogged; though not to Ajax. The Spurs franchise was sold to one Brian Ebden (he of accusing Alex Ferguson of touching up his girlfriend infamy) and became Mother City (honestly!), while Ajax took over the franchise of minnows Seven Stars, a township club for whom Benni McCarthy played. But all the Spurs fans went glory hunting and started supporting Plastic Ajax.

                                          Plastic is now second in the league. First is SuperSport United (SuperSport is SA's equivalent of Sky Sports), another franchise club. So let's join hands in prayer that third-placed Santos, a real football club with excellent struggle credentials, win the league. Which in itself would be sensational on several levels.

                                          I hate it even more when famous relegated clubs buy the franchise of a club that wasn't relegated, dissolve or sell the relegated club, and rename the new franchise after the club they just sold. AmaZulu has done that, Manning Rangers as well. Fuck them and fuck Franchise. And fuck Plastic Ajax, of course. And SuperSport Utd.

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                                            #22
                                            Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

                                            I would raise the following as a salient point in this debate:

                                            Arsenal moved across London, rather from London to rural Buckinghamshire. This comparison with Arsenal is a disingenuous one that Milton Keynes apologists always trot out in defence of their beloved Franchise. I don't think anyone seriously questions Arsenal's right to exist in North London - the 1919 promotion issue is, as UA says, what really rankles with Spurs fans.

                                            If Franchise do what they should do - resign from the Football League and take a place in the Southern League Midlands Division and accept that they are no different to any other club in that they should start at or near the bottom of the pyramid and work their way up - then, yeah, I'll accept them.

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                                              #23
                                              Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

                                              OK, Urs. I didn't realize that the term "statute of limitations" would wind you up quite so much.

                                              My point was simply that at some point in the future, even if people oppose the notion of franchises, people are going to think that the events of 2002-4 (sorry, I'm a bit vague on dates on this one) are pretty irrelevant. No doubt people from Wimbledon will still care for a long, long time, and rightly so (I'm not likely to soon forgive MLB for my Expos).

                                              But if MK Dons were in some kind of cup final around about 2058, would - and should - neutrals say: "sod these guys, 55 years ago someone moved them 70 miles up the road, I won't support them?"

                                              That just seems a little excessive to me.

                                              And Urs, I'll tell the story about how Arsenal stayed up in 1919 if you tell the story about how Fiorentina managed to skip directly from C2 to B on their way back up in 2003.

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                                                #24
                                                Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

                                                I simply don't accept that it's an accurate comparison.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Statute of Limitations on Franchise?

                                                  Sorry - that what's an accurate comparison - the Arsenal thing?

                                                  If so, fair enough. But I think my question stands even in the absence of the analogy.

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