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The decline of the German empire

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    The decline of the German empire

    There was a thread that might have been worth continuing in the World Cup forum, but I can't locate it.

    Anyway, after the 3-0 defeat to Holland last night, Jogi Löw's position is becoming increasingly untenable, even for his supporters. Unless his team can turn things around dramatically against France this week and at home against Holland in November, he'll be gone by December.

    Recording just three wins this year -- all of them unconvincing and rather fortunate 2-1s, against Saudi-Arabia, Sweden and Peru -- just isn't good enough. There are all manner of reasons for the decline, which we discussed in the World Cup thread. Lack of talent isn't one of them. Indeed, Germany could have beaten Holland.

    There is an obvious lack of self-confidence and tension. Germany were very good up to Holland's goal, but their conversion of good chances is very poor (which points to confidence problems). When Holland scored, from a corner where Neuer and Hummels looked really bad -- you could actually see shoulders drop. It was like Holland had mugged the Germans of their confidence.

    Even in the last 20 minutes, Germany had plenty chances (and where denied a penalty -- which they'd have missed). Sloppy play led to the 2-0 in the last minute. By the time of the third, I had switched off.

    Löw promised a rebuilding of the team. But that hasn't happened. In part, because there are too few good players coming through. Uth is not the solution to the striker problem. Having said that, it's a mystery why Thomas Müller, out of form for four years, is still being picked ahead of Julian Brandt.

    And that is the big problem: the Class of 2014 must go. ter Stegen is a great successor to Neuer, whose body language is no longer that of the imperious leader he once was. Boateng is becoming a liability. Hummels is past his prime. Müller is trying hard, and might be a good impact player, but he is not the Müller from 2010-14. You can't drop Kroos, of course.

    It's a mystery why Löw doesn't do the obvious: build a team to use the talent of Leroy Sané to maximum effect. I'm not suggesting to build a team around him, but to use his speed (and that of Werner).

    #2
    Losing to Holland is like England losing to Scotland, isn't it? A rivalry the Germans care about far more than their supposed one with us.

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      #3
      First item on the Dutch radio news bulletin this morning!

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        #4
        Yeah, that's the grudge match, though more for the Dutch than for the Germans. Germany has been so dominant that they don't really think of bad-tempered rivalries. They'll respect sides like Italy, Spain or France as their equals (more or less), and England as the founder of the game. But if there's a dislike, it's for Holland. It's more emotional than based on sporting contests. Löw brought the idea of rivalry to a point in a pre-match press conference: "We (Germany) always qualify for the big tournaments." (In fairness, he also pointed out that small countries like Holland will have fluctuations in the supply of talent.)

        I think the German dislike fir the Oranje it's partly the ungracious attitudes of the Dutch after losing the 1974 final, with the legend of Holland having been robbed. Then there was 1988, when Hans van Breukelen wiped his arse on a Germany shirt, and 1990 with Rijkaard's spitting and van Breukelen's masterclass in cuntishness.

        And yet, losing 3-0 to Holland is secondary. The reaction I've seen tends to be one of "well done, the Dutch". The important story is Germany having lost again. The reaction would be the same if the opponent had been France, Spain or Italy.

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          #5
          I think current results show how big Phillip Lahm's contribution was, on the pitch, in understanding the game and in bringing the Bayern and non -Bayern factions together.

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            #6
            Who takes over and would his appointment be conditional on his promising a clear-out of 2014 dead wood?

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              #7
              The succession is the big question. Usually it was the case of assistants or other DFB coaches taking over: Herberger from Nerz, Schön from Herberger, Derwall from Schön, Vogts (who was as U21 coach was sort of a #2) from Beckenbauer, Löw from Klinsmann. The exceotions were all in times of failure: Beckenauer after Derwall flopped at Euro 84; Ribbeck after Vogts got knocked out in the QF of the World Cup 98; Völler after Ribbeck flopped at Euro 2000; Klindsmann after Völler flopped at Euro 2004.

              The new guy will likely come from outside the DFB, which would rule out current U21 coach Stefan Kuntz. I can't imagine the DFB looking for a non-German coach. We can also rule out Klopp and Tuchel as successors, because they are having much more fun and earn much more money at Liverpool and PSG.

              I don't think there's a great depth of coaching quality in Germany. In fact, of all current Bundesliga coaches, there is only one whom I can imagine as a viable choice: Ralf Rangnick. He's a bit of a journeyman, but has done a very good job as sporting director of Red Bullshit Leipzig. He'd be the technocratic choice.

              Maybe there'll be calls for Philip Lahm, as a Klinsmannesque talisman. That would be a risky appointment, much as Beckenbauer's was in 1984.

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                #8
                Originally posted by G-Man View Post
                1988, when Hans van Breukelen wiped his arse on a Germany shirt
                That was Ronald Koeman, sir! I think you owe poor defamed Hans an apology.

                Also: WTF with this result? I did not see that coming at all.

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                  #9
                  While this result points more to Germany's failures than Holland's brilliance, I think there's no doubt Koeman has improved the team and hiring him back in 2014, as many wanted all along, would have prevented the dry spell of the last four years.

                  I think the German dislike fir the Oranje it's partly the ungracious attitudes of the Dutch after losing the 1974 final
                  You'd be bitter too playing sensuous Total Football all the way to the final, scoring before Germany even touched the ball, and then being beaten at your own game by a bunch of bickering malcontents from Malente, the world's arsehole*.

                  Plus you know, the war, back when that actually meant something to people and not just tabloids.



                  * Sepp Maier's words.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Flynnie View Post
                    I think there's no doubt Koeman has improved the team and hiring him back in 2014, as many wanted all along, would have prevented the dry spell of the last four years
                    Danny Blind is to the KNVB what Hillary Clinton is to the DNC.

                    It was his turn.

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                      #11
                      Cometh the hour …

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Wouter D View Post
                        That was Ronald Koeman, sir! I think you owe poor defamed Hans an apology.
                        Hans is still a dickhead for his twattish behaviour in 1990. Koeman has always been a dickhead.

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by G-Man View Post
                          Hans is still a dickhead for his twattish behaviour in 1990. Koeman has always been a dickhead.
                          Koeman did the arse-wipe - it was Olaf Thon's shirt, I believe - but van Breukelen sniffed it afterwards. Apparently.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Stumpy Pepys View Post
                            Cometh the hour …

                            I have been a fervent supporter of this for many years. It's my birthday soon - please let it happen.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by G-Man View Post
                              Hans is still a dickhead for his twattish behaviour in 1990. Koeman has always been a dickhead.
                              This is how you react to being wrong? To think I used to like goats...

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                                #16
                                I'm not wrong about van Breukelen's twattish behaviour in 1990 though. Look at him. But, in fairness, as I was looking for this clip, I also came across a German article in which Hans says he was later embarrassed by his behaviour.

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                                  #17
                                  Netherlands seemed to lose the plot collectively in 1990, even more than usual, when you contrast performance with ability. I'm sure that squad had more ability than the one that made the 2010 final, for example.

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                                    #18
                                    That video simply shows Van Breukelen getting upset with Voller for looking for a penalty. Doesn't seem terribly twattish

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                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                                      Netherlands seemed to lose the plot collectively in 1990, even more than usual, when you contrast performance with ability. I'm sure that squad had more ability than the one that made the 2010 final, for example.
                                      That squad had more ability than any Dutch team in a World Cup, 1974 excepted.

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                                        #20
                                        Van der Sar managed to outtwat Van Breukelen in 1998.

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                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by G-Man View Post
                                          There was a thread that might have been worth continuing in the World Cup forum, but I can't locate it.
                                          I can...

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                                            #22
                                            What is Van der sar supposed to have done wrong there?

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                                              #23
                                              There's a danger of a long term manager becoming trapped by a particular style of football. Rather than playing the best formation and using the best tactical approach to maximise the talent available, managers stick with formations and tactics and expect players to adapt. The Germany v Mexico game really exposed the limitations with the way Jogi Löw had set his team up. They were completely unable to cope with the Mexican's high pressing game and had no plan B. They didnt change things to try to exploit the space that a high pressing game can leave behind each line of the opponent and they kept playing sluggish possession football that got them absolutely nowhere.

                                              If Herr Löw can't change his approach to the game then they're doomed to become trapped by a style of football that served them well for the past 10-12 years but that is perhaps now no longer fit for purpose. Löw was the right man for the job but perhaps he's just not capable of escaping a trap of his own making? It may well be time for a new manager to bring some current ideas to the nationalmannschaft

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                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by treibeis View Post
                                                Koeman did the arse-wipe - it was Olaf Thon's shirt, I believe - but van Breukelen sniffed it afterwards. Apparently.
                                                Hmmm. I was at that game but to be honest my memory is not great. All I remember is the bricks and bottles flying around outside the ground

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                                                  #25
                                                  So Jogi mixed things up a bit, with a different formation. Süle in for the injured Boateng, Schulz for Hector (who was one of the better players against Holland),Kehrer for Can, Sané for Müller (at last!)
                                                  Plus Gnabry for Uth up front, going for natural talent over height. All were improvements. In fact, none of the starting 11 had a bad game. But, few had great games.

                                                  Schulz looked very good, but left-back is the least of Germany's problems (aside from goalkeeper), with three good contenders (Schulz, Hector, Max). Ginter has done well since he succeeded Kimmich at right-back. He should be set now. Thilo Kehrer did pretty well and should become a regular.

                                                  Hummels was convincing, and with young players in the team, his experience and leadership are essential. Plus, he should have won a penalty which the referee inexplicably didn't give. Süle doesn't have Boateng's charisma, but did his job mostly well. Tah might become an alternative.

                                                  In defensive midfield, Kimmich and Kroos are set.

                                                  Which leaves the attack: Sané and Werner looked very dangerous in the first half. Werner was industrious, but just can't close the deal. Sané needs greater confidence in the German shirt, it seems. Where for Man City he looks sharp and confident, for Germany he looks lightweight.

                                                  It's clear that Uth will it become the new Miro Klose. Gnabry has the ability to score goals, but is languishing now at Bayern. He doesn't give me the impression of someone who'll become a Germany legend. But there aren't many strikers around. Teuchert from the U21 looks like someone who might break through, but he's not even first choice at Schalke. I'd like to see Werner in the middle, but first he has to learn again to score goals...

                                                  There are still young players who didn't play this week. Goretzka, of course (though he hasn't done anything for Germany since the Confed Cup) and Leverkusen's Havertz.

                                                  The talent is there. Löw has the tactical variations. The team has played well in all three games, results notwithstanding.

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