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Kop on the left, then on the right: camera positions at Anfield

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    #76
    Just on the camera positions at Anfield, I'm still disconcerted by the change in angle since the big stand was redeveloped, after years of watching Liverpool (on TV) from a particular angle..... an observation I've made more than once to the long suffering Mrs D, it seems.
    You're not alone. Last season looked as if they'd filmed it from a blimp 300 feet above the stand.
    This year they've built a new gantry closer where the old one was. It was noticeable for the West Ham game on Sunday.

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      #77
      Originally posted by Sporting View Post
      I'm none too sure about whether crowds really do "suck" them in. The example often given is that of the Kop at Liverpool which was said to be worth a goal start to the home team (though as Liverpool always when possible kicked towards that end in the second half maybe the refrain should read an extra goal instead of a goal start). In any case, it'd be interesting to find out how many goals over the years Liverpool have scored at the Kop end and how many at the Anfield Road end. Of course, you'd have to factor in data such as the number of goals scored by all teams in each half and also take into account the fact that the Reds have tended to be way better than most of their away opponents over the years.

      It's interesting to me, by the way, but probably to nobody else at all, that Atlético Madrid, at least when they were based in the Vicente Calderon, almost invariably played the first half of home games kicking towards their most vociferous fans, Frente Atlético. I suppose the rationale was catch out the opposition while they're cold and hope to hang on in the second half, though I may be imagining things here!
      Hmm, this is interesting. Burnley invariably kick towards the Jimmy Mac in the second half so the opposition are always kicking towards their fans too. This has been a constant for at least a decade so across several managers.

      The early 90s team under Jimmy Mullen always kicked towards the Cricket Field in the second half. Most older footage - including the Orient Game - has the second half going towards the old Bee Hole End.

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        #78
        Do you think that the pre kick-off coin toss is just for show then, and that the choice of ends has already been decided some time before the match (presumably with some kind of reciprocol arrangement between the teams for home and away matches)? Going back to Spain again, Barcelona nearly always play towards the left-hand goal in the first half of home matches.

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          #79
          Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
          Hmm, this is interesting. Burnley invariably kick towards the Jimmy Mac in the second half so the opposition are always kicking towards their fans too. This has been a constant for at least a decade so across several managers.

          The early 90s team under Jimmy Mullen always kicked towards the Cricket Field in the second half. Most older footage - including the Orient Game - has the second half going towards the old Bee Hole End.
          Obvious, but irresistible. Listen to that percussion:

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            #80
            To me, Wembley always seems to have the cameras on the "wrong" side, i.e. facing the main stand, royal box and dugouts. It might seem more wrong because I've always sat on the main stand side, so when I rewatch, the goals go in at the wrong ends.
            Perhaps the logic there is that there will always be a crowd on that side, so the camera won't pick out vast swathes of emptiness they get with a Scunthorpe play off final for example. The angle also mostly omits the top tiers, which can also be unused at such games.

            This is a great thread.

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              #81
              I've done plenty of grounds with Argyle where the away end has changed over the years but I think Barnet and Cheltenham are the only ones where we've been in three different stands.

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                #82
                I think I’ve mentioned on here before in a similar thread that I watched from all four sides/stands of Colchester’s old Layer Road ground as an away fan - as well from a temporary gazebo type thing in a corner one season. I think I may have done the same at Griffin Park and Underhill too.

                Coincidentally, the above are three of my least favourite grounds ever, or perhaps it’s not a coincidence as their lack of a settled, decent away end/section may have contributed to that opinion.

                Originally posted by Sporting View Post
                Tangentially to the subject of where away fans are located, I seem to remember that there used to be a couple of clubs whose main singing/chanting supporters were not in the traditional behind the goal zone, but alongside the long edge of the pitch. I think Man City at Maine Road were one of these clubs, and maybe Burnley as well, though I'm much less sure on this one.
                Would West Ham have been another, with the Chicken Run and it’s replacement?

                And welcome from me too, Sporting. Took me a bit of time to get through this nascent mega-thread as I’ve been on holiday but enjoying it as much as everyone else.
                Last edited by Ray de Galles; 17-08-2018, 02:57.

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                  #83
                  Originally posted by Greenlander View Post
                  I've done plenty of grounds with Argyle where the away end has changed over the years but I think Barnet and Cheltenham are the only ones where we've been in three different stands.
                  Since our initial promotion to the Football League in 1999, Plymouth are the only team to have been given the Prestbury Road End and that was because we completely underestimated how many fans they would bring (it was something like our 3rd or 4th home game as a Football League club). Was also the game where Neil Grayson scored a volley from 30 yards. Great days.

                  Plymouth fans went onto smash up a pub on Whaddon Road later in the evening. It was such a dump that there were rumours they caused £30k worth of improvements.

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                    #84
                    Probably the most noticeable example of this came last year when Argentina played a couple of games at the Bombonera. For those not familiar with it, the Bombonera looks like this:



                    The main camera is located in the middle of the middle tier, so when watching a televised Boca game you see the 'flat' side of the stadium across the pitch (which is executive boxes, for the most part). But Argentina games have one set of pitchside advertising for the Argentine market, and another for the international market (not unlike most international matches really), so the local and international feeds have cameras across the stadium from one another. When Argentina play at the Monumental this isn't noticeable, because the Monumental looks basically the same whichever side of it you're on. But when they started playing at the Bombonera my Twitter mentions filled up with people watching the international feed, confused/seemingly offended at the fact they were seeing the stands rather than the boxes.

                    Originally posted by seand View Post
                    Are there any grounds out there where the away fans have a particularly good section, even a section the home fans would like for themselves?
                    When I worked as a steward at Old Trafford, getting put in the line between home and away fans (i.e. just inside the away section) in the East Stand, or at the front of the section right behind that corner flag, was my favourite assignment (when you're in the away end you really don't have anything to do but watch the game with the fans and, if necessary, remind people not to be arseholes, for the most part). The view from there was great. As (internally; unlike a few of my fellow student colleagues I wasn't enough of a dick to openly celebrate the goals) was being there when we ended Arsenal's 49-game unbeaten run.

                    In Argentine stadia away fans are only making a tentative comeback this season in some grounds, after several years of being banned. But the away end is practically always an end. In grounds like the Bombonera, the Monumental and the Cilindro (Racing), it's in the upper tier so not really visible from the main camera angle. Argentinos Juniors on the other hand only have three stands, and the away section of their ground is one entire side of the stadium – the side opposite the TV camera. So when Argentinos allow(ed) away fans in, they were much, much more visible than the home support.

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                      #85
                      So as a steward you could watch the game? I thought they were all meant to face the crowd.

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                        #86
                        Interesting what you write about Argentina.
                        There, I think it's compulsory for the home team to play towards its chanting section in the first half.

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                          #87
                          Originally posted by Sporting View Post
                          So as a steward you could watch the game? I thought they were all meant to face the crowd.
                          Depends on the job you're asked to do that day. In front of the crowd looking up at them and monitoring - look at the crowd. Concourse duty - can stand on the steps and watch the match for about 35 minutes both half. Manning the turnstiles - watch the match as if you were a paying fan from about 20 minutes in. Etc.

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                            #88
                            Classic example of singing support on a side of a ground: Lens.

                            https://youtu.be/MbkPcX7tvxY

                            I love Lens. Just your average Ligue 2 match.

                            Also, after years of singing my teenage
                            head off in the East End at Ashton Gate, going back to a rather sedentary Atyeo stand was a bit weird. The only time I saw away supporters in the East End was bloody scary Pompey fans in about 1973.

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                              #89
                              Maybe a Birmingham fan could confirm this, but St Andrews is another ground where the main singing section was once on the side, on the Kop terrace. Since redevelopment of the Kop and Tilton Road End, the latter has become the noisiest section. At one point in its days as a terrace, it was split between home and away fans, as can be seen here :

                              https://www.footballgroundguide.com/...ham/index.html

                              At Maine Road, there was a period where the Kippax was the only terraced section. I remember going there with WBA in the 80s and sitting on bench seats behind the one goal (Platt Lane Stand?) On a later visit, we were in the opposite end, but there was a new Kippax Stand by then.

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                                #90
                                Yeah the old away section at St Andrews was a pretty massive chunk of terrace behind the goal, though my recollection was the most vocal home fans were in the adjacent bit of the same terrace.

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                                  #91
                                  Originally posted by Logan Mountstuart View Post
                                  Also, after years of singing my teenage
                                  head off in the East End at Ashton Gate, going back to a rather sedentary Atyeo stand was a bit weird. The only time I saw away supporters in the East End was bloody scary Pompey fans in about 1973.
                                  I can remember a home game against Leeds in the late 1970s. There was one bloke standing on his own near my father and me in the East End (near the first corner flag, which is where my father insisted on standing, even though (or because) the view was so bad).

                                  All of a sudden, this bloke shouted, "Ah, bugger it" and then started singing, "We all love Leeds / And Leeds and Leeds / Leeds and Leeds ...", etc..

                                  A foolish, yet ultimately courageous, fellow, he got his head kicked in.

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                                    #92
                                    Originally posted by Sporting View Post
                                    Do you think that the pre kick-off coin toss is just for show then, and that the choice of ends has already been decided some time before the match (presumably with some kind of reciprocol arrangement between the teams for home and away matches)? Going back to Spain again, Barcelona nearly always play towards the left-hand goal in the first half of home matches.
                                    Is it that the home team comes out and warms up in the half they want to defend first, and the away team never decides to choose 'ends' rather than kick off if they win the toss?

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                                      #93
                                      Originally posted by seand View Post
                                      Are there any grounds out there where the away fans have a particularly good section, even a section the home fans would like for themselves?
                                      Not sure about home fans, but, during his time as Villa manager, Martin O'Neill wanted his side's fans in the lower tier of the North Stand. The away fans were thus shifted from there to part of the Doug Ellis stand. We'd need a Villa fan to say how much difference this made to the atmosphere. My feeling is that, when you've got something like the Holte End, you shouldn't worry too much about whether your fans also have the whole of the other end.

                                      I can't contradict E10 about St Andrews. When I went there pre-redevelopment, the whole place was loud. I just always assumed the Kop were the leaders. Another point about that Kop though ; was it unique in being the only side terrace to be called a Kop? There were Kops at Anfield, both Sheffield grounds, Notts County, Tranmere, and Northampton, all of which were behind one goal.

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                                        #94
                                        And as a follow on from James' point, was Filbert Street the only one that referred to theirs as the Spion Kop?

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                                          #95
                                          Originally posted by nmrfox View Post
                                          And as a follow on from James' point, was Filbert Street the only one that referred to theirs as the Spion Kop?
                                          Not that anyone would know what our stands are called but before redevelopment the small terrace between the Devonport End and the Lyndhurst was always known as the Spion Kop. It's the bottom left of this picture and was useful for our scam whereby we'd buy a ticket for the more expensive Lyndhurst at the first home game then pay for the Spion Kop thereafter showing the back of the ticket with it's never changing Sunday Independent advert. We pretty much got through a whole season before getting rumbled. After that we'd buy two and shuttle back and forth to the toilets handing them across.



                                          Not really a kop is it.

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                                            #96
                                            Originally posted by Sporting View Post
                                            So as a steward you could watch the game? I thought they were all meant to face the crowd.
                                            At Bristol Rovers (and undoubtedly elsewhere) in the 1970s, it was the stewards who started (some of) the fights.

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                                              #97
                                              I remember that at Old Trafford, at the Stretford End at least and probably in other parts of the ground, there were separate turnstiles for under 14s or something (not sure exactly what age it was). Quite a few times when I was there without a ticket adults would enter through these turnstiles, as the queues broke down into anarchy and people got panicky about actually getting in to see the game. (I'm pretty certain that although it may have been cheaper as a kid to get in this was not the main reason for doing so.)

                                              I'm not sure that nowadays any separate turnstiles for kids exist in any grounds, as unaccompanied by adults is definitely a no-go...Prepared to be proven wrong again, though.

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                                                #98
                                                "Unaccompanied by adults". That's maybe an even bigger issue than cameras or ends changing.

                                                I mean what kid could afford 50 quid, let alone a train, and why can't parents let their kids go on their own any more? In the 70s and 80s they'd likely get their head kicked in but they still went.

                                                When I was 13. my parents thought I was down the rec playing football, while I actually went to Nottingham from Stroud on a cheap away day. It was perfectly normal just to be out with your mates for 10 hours.

                                                Modern parents, eh? Miners.

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                                                  #99
                                                  Mincers, not miners. Can't edit on phone.

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                                                    Is it me or has Preston changed tonight?

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