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Kop on the left, then on the right: camera positions at Anfield

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    #51
    That pic reminds me of when Cheltenham played West Brom in the League Cup in 2006. My then girlfriend and her dad were Baggies fans and went because of the cheap tickets, naturally I was in with the Cheltenham fans. It just so happened we were in the same end.

    We noticed this so made our way over to chat to each other at half-time and the stewards actually wouldn't let us get near each other. Even after pointing out that she was my girlfriend, they were having none of it, so we had to resort back to texting despite being yards from each other.

    Got to love jobsworths.

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      #52
      Actually, I might have misremembered that, seems to be from a bit earlier, early-mid sixties. Anyway, at about 5 minutes on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg5UL8JRm4M&t=653s

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        #53
        This is from 1970-71 and it's still on the South stand...

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          #54
          Originally posted by Kevin S View Post
          Ooh, Norwich do look weird in green socks.

          ...for about half a minute, then it gradually becomes surprisingly 'normal' as the brain adjusts. Interesting!


          Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
          VA, I think that the "reverse angle" rules reflect both motivations, as do the "Media Matter" and "Exploitation of Commercial Rights" regulations in general.
          Never said thanks for this reply, sorry ursus it is more or less as I expected, I have to say.
          Those regulations are remarkably detailed (and longer than those regarding the conduct of the competition itself) and worth a perusal, if only to understand just how much of the televised "match day experience" is mandated by UEFA acting at the behest of its "rights holders" and other commercial "partners".
          Sigh. Why am I not taken aback even in the slightest by this...?

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            #55
            You're right about Maine Road Sporting. The legendary Kippax was opposite the Main Stand and was split with away supporters. If memory serves it was City fans behind both goals for all but the biggest games.

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              #56
              Originally posted by N est ? View Post
              Actually, I might have misremembered that, seems to be from a bit earlier, early-mid sixties. Anyway, at about 5 minutes on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg5UL8JRm4M&t=653s
              Ah, great find, thanks! Struggling to see whether the tunnel is on the long side opposite (meaning the gantry is between the south stand and river end) or if the tunnel is on the right hand side, meaning the gantry is where the snake pit now is. I think it's the former.

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                #57
                Originally posted by Various Artist View Post
                Ooh, Norwich do look weird in green socks.

                ...for about half a minute, then it gradually becomes surprisingly 'normal' as the brain adjusts. Interesting!
                If they had yellow fold-over tops, I think I'd probably accept them more readily. We've had hooped before, haven't we?

                Edit - in fact the new kit's socks are nearly proper hoops.

                Last edited by Kevin S; 16-08-2018, 09:19.

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                  #58
                  There's a remarkable bit in that video Nesta posts, starting at 8:29 – a fleet-footed Harry Redknapp crosses for Martin Peters to flick home one goal for West Ham, immediately followed by the next clip where he picks up a ball forward from Bobby Moore, again dances down the right wing and this time finds Geoff Hurst in the six-yard box to score. I'd forgotten 'Arry played for the Hammers alongside all the World Cup greats.

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                    #59
                    There's been a growing trend in general for away fans to be given sections of stands along the side rather than traditional ends. Maybe home clubs think having their own fans behind each goal "sucking them in" gives them an advantage. It used to be incredibly rare. Burnley was one of the exceptions (but dear Lord, the old Long Side was a fabulous place to watch football, home or away).

                    I could chat about this shit for hours.

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                      #60
                      Originally posted by Kevin S View Post
                      If they had yellow fold-over tops, I think I'd probably accept them more readily. We've had hooped before, haven't we?
                      Edit - in fact the new kit's socks are nearly proper hoops.
                      Yes, I'd just about call the current ones hooped, and yes I noticed yesterday on Historical Football Kits that the 1947-48 socks definitely had hoops. Since 1973, the only significant green there's been on them prior to this season was the 2014-15 Errea strip's peculiar 'greaves' (heh, talking of England '66), or whatever the knee equivalent of that is:



                      (1947-48, 1972-73, 2014-15, 2018-19)
                      Last edited by Various Artist; 16-08-2018, 09:39.

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                        #61
                        Originally posted by Kevin S View Post
                        Ah, great find, thanks! Struggling to see whether the tunnel is on the long side opposite (meaning the gantry is between the south stand and river end) or if the tunnel is on the right hand side, meaning the gantry is where the snake pit now is. I think it's the former.
                        Looks to me like the far end is covered, though it isn't 100% clear, which would make it the barclay end I think, as the river end was open back then? Which would make the gantry at the corner of south stand and river end.

                        Apropos of nothing, Carrow road is probably my third most frequently visited ground after selhurst park and barnet's underhill.

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                          #62
                          Good detective work there Nesta! Is it just the clip at 5:06 you're going on, or is there more somewhere there that I've missed?


                          Incidentally, Historical Football Kits also notes that the 1972-73 season (of the green Norwich socks of which we speak) would have been the debut of the current NCFC club crest:
                          In 1972 The Canaries won the Second Division title and took their place in the First Division for the first time. To mark this achievement a smart new crest was designed, which included a lion and castle from the city's coat of arms. It appears this was not ready for the start of the season and City played at least once in plain shirts in August.
                          Such a perfect design it's remain entirely unchanged, so far as I know, for 46 years now. I occasionally wonder, are there other clubs who have kept their badges exactly the same for so long?
                          Last edited by Various Artist; 16-08-2018, 09:44.

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                            #63
                            Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                            VA, I think that the "reverse angle" rules reflect both motivations, as do the "Media Matter" and "Exploitation of Commercial Rights" regulations in general.

                            Those regulations are remarkably detailed (and longer than those regarding the conduct of the competition itself) and worth a perusal, if only to understand just how much of the televised "match day experience" is mandated by UEFA acting at the behest of its "rights holders" and other commercial "partners".
                            Would you also infer from this that the current competition format is driven by advertisers (who want Real v Bayern every season) not just the big clubs and TV companies?

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                              #64
                              Possibly St James Park was an early example of home fans getting both ends. I recall us Barnsley fans being stuck with a very poor view there in 1998 whereas at Spurs, for example, we had an end.

                              Another factor in that is decline of hooliganism. It was easier for the plod to shepherd the fans out of an end after games IIRC.

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                                #65
                                Away supporters should be visible at Cardiff as they're in the far right corner from the main camera angles IIRC. As an away fan I've been on the telly in a close up, but that was S4C who had put a camera next to the away fans and panned up occasionally.

                                The main singing at Shrewsbury's old ground was on the long Riverside terrace. Not that it's easy to tell. The joke was Gay Meadow had about as much atmosphere as the moon. In the new Stadium the safe standing section has been put into the south stand behind one of the goals and a lot of people are trying to turn it into the singing section. Otherwise the noisy types are in block 19 of the west stand, the block nearest to the away end.

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                                  #66
                                  Originally posted by Various Artist View Post
                                  Good detective work there Nesta! Is it just the clip at 5:06 you're going on, or is there more somewhere there that I've missed?

                                  At 6.28 you can see what looks like the tunnel on the left of the screen. Although the camera focuses quite tightly on the pitch so you can't actually make out a roof at the far end, the rear of the crowd there does seem to be somewhat in shadow, which makes me think the roof is there.

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                                    #67
                                    Oooh, yes, it's there alright. Definitely from the River/South corner then. Great work.

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                                      #68
                                      I'd have thought the primary concern for home clubs regarding location of away fans would be ease of segregation and ease of access followed in the list of priorities by shittiest area/view available, leaving position-relative-to-TV-cameras far enough down the priority list to be a negligible consideration at best.

                                      Are there any grounds out there where the away fans have a particularly good section, even a section the home fans would like for themselves?

                                      Just on the camera positions at Anfield, I'm still disconcerted by the change in angle since the big stand was redeveloped, after years of watching Liverpool (on TV) from a particular angle..... an observation I've made more than once to the long suffering Mrs D, it seems.
                                      Last edited by seand; 16-08-2018, 11:15.

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                                        #69
                                        Originally posted by seand View Post
                                        I'd have thought the primary concern for home clubs regarding location of away fans would be ease of segregation and ease of access followed in the list of priorities by shittiest area/view available, leaving position-relative-to-TV-cameras far enough down the priority list to be a negligible consideration at best.

                                        Are there any grounds out there where the away fans have a particularly good section, even a section the home fans would like for themselves?
                                        Cambridge give away fans the big new stand behind one of the goals - though it's not as near the pitch as the others.

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                                          #70
                                          We give away fans the newest stand behind one of the goals (Hazlewoods Stand) - it's exactly like the stand down the side of the pitch (where the camera sits) but the acoustics from it are the best in the ground.

                                          What it invariably means is the we get outsung by small numbers, regardless of how epic it can be behind the other goal in the Speedy Skips Stand (formerly C&G Stand, formerly Prestbury Road End). I've known less than 100 come across louder than the home fans before with the home end roof basically keeping all of the sound in that end.

                                          We did go through a phase of giving away fans half of the Colin Farmer Stand, and giving home fans the Hazlewoods, but not enough took it up, and as others have said, it's easier to ferry away fans onto coaches immediately at the exits after games.

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                                            #71
                                            Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                                            There's been a growing trend in general for away fans to be given sections of stands along the side rather than traditional ends. Maybe home clubs think having their own fans behind each goal "sucking them in" gives them an advantage. It used to be incredibly rare. Burnley was one of the exceptions (but dear Lord, the old Long Side was a fabulous place to watch football, home or away).

                                            I could chat about this shit for hours.
                                            I'm none too sure about whether crowds really do "suck" them in. The example often given is that of the Kop at Liverpool which was said to be worth a goal start to the home team (though as Liverpool always when possible kicked towards that end in the second half maybe the refrain should read an extra goal instead of a goal start). In any case, it'd be interesting to find out how many goals over the years Liverpool have scored at the Kop end and how many at the Anfield Road end. Of course, you'd have to factor in data such as the number of goals scored by all teams in each half and also take into account the fact that the Reds have tended to be way better than most of their away opponents over the years.

                                            It's interesting to me, by the way, but probably to nobody else at all, that Atltico Madrid, at least when they were based in the Vicente Calderon, almost invariably played the first half of home games kicking towards their most vociferous fans, Frente Atltico. I suppose the rationale was catch out the opposition while they're cold and hope to hang on in the second half, though I may be imagining things here!

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                                              #72
                                              Sporting is of course unsurprisingly right about Spain. La Liga sees fewer away fans average than any of the other top 5 leagues and has had that distinction for as long as I can remember.

                                              At the Meazza, away fans are assigned to the opposite end of the ground from the primary home curva, which means that they change ends depending on whether Inter or Milan are at home. Teams that dont being many fans are relegated to a corner on the side opposite the main camera, which means that they can be seen. Those with larger followings will get the central part of the lower tier of the curva, which exposes them to abuse from the home fans above them (our Wales fans are unfortunately familiar with a particularly virulent episode of such abuse at an international). When we were going regularly, there was a special protocol for Napoli supporters, who were relegated to the corner of the second tier on the same side as the main camera, purportedly to eliminate the possibility of them being attacked from above.

                                              One thing about away in Italian grounds is that many (sometimes a majority) of the away fans havent traveled far, but are rather resident in the area where the game is being played.

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                                                #73
                                                Away support in Spain is of course made difficult by the distances in travelling involved, as well as other cultural factors which I won't go into now. That said, it has always been surprising to me how small the away presence is in both the Madrid and the Barcelona derbies.

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                                                  #74
                                                  Originally posted by JM Footzee View Post
                                                  ...based on a quick glance through YouTube we switched to one from the Sir Elton John stand side (then called the East/Main stand) around the 11/12 season. This was because the East/Main was shut at that time, bar the dressing rooms and press box (although even that moved eventually), and in a major state of disrepair. Presumably the club didn't want that in shot all the time. The new gantry was made from scaffolding at the front of the stand - definitely lower than the gantry on the other side.

                                                  They switched back, again based on YouTube, for the 13/14 season by which point we'd been taken over by the Pozzos and the decrepit stand had been demolished and a rebuild had started.
                                                  I did commentary for a match at Watford early in the 2013-14 season and both the stand (I sat in it) and temporary gantry were still in situ as can be seen from the highlights. The gantry's position meant that not only was it lower than previous commentary position, but it also obstructed the view of one corner of the ground from some of the press seats. It's hard to commentate on a short corner when you can't see it.

                                                  I'd also forgotten that second Watford goal should've been a free-kick not a penalty. And we ultimately went down on goal difference.

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                                                    #75
                                                    Aha! I based that comment based on the 13/14 highlights sample I dug up from YouTube, which was on a match against Millwall on Boxing Day that was filmed from the Rous/GT Stand gantry. I've just had a quick dig around and while I can't find a story saying demolition had begun, it seems work started not all that long after that game against Doncaster on 17 September.

                                                    Watford's dug-outs/tunnel are in the East/SEJ stand for the record, opposite the TV position. Away fans are pretty visible as they sit in the eastern side of the Vicarage Road end (north stand).

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