Kop on the left, then on the right: camera positions at Anfield

[statto99]

Sadly no as I am of the away persuasion in that pairing. Despite it being an absolutely normal experience for us at many actual matches it feels very weird as a broadcast style, especially for the goalmouth action up the far end.

[beak]

Everton v Leeds in 1964 was filmed entirely from behind one of the goals.

Huh. Any idea why? Building work?

[Jobi1]

Don't think anyone has mentioned Blackburn yet on this. The camera at Ewood Park was in the Main Stand through the 90s (ref. the famous Le Tissier goal, etc.) but at some point switched to the smaller stand on the other side. When the highlights come up on the EFL show these days the camera seems like it's practically at pitch level, a really dreadful angle for main TV pictures. Haven't seen a live broadcast game from there for a while – has there been one recently, and if so do they use that same awful low angle for the main camera?

[statto99]

I am thinking about when the gantry was introduced, all of the earliest football footage of course being filmed from the touchline, or behind one of the goals, as per this footage of Liverpool vs. Everton in 1902.

Everton v Leeds in 1964 was filmed entirely from behind one of the goals.

[jameswba]

I was watching Middlesbrough vs WBA on Friday night, and it was a rather disorienting experience. Partly because it was now Albion having to repel the usual Pulis-inspired barrage of high balls, long throws and the rest. But more importantly because the TV cameras were opposite the main stand rather than in it, as they used to be. How long has this been the case? And are away fans at the Riverside still where they used to be?

[The Inner Light]

I may be imagining this, it may have been mentioned already. But Spurs Europe games seemed to be from the opposite side of the ground, highlights anyway, a couple of years ago it’s very weird when this happens. Does anyone else remember this?

[jameswba]

Yes, should have included the Wrexham Kop. I stood on it two or three times in the late 80s. It's still there, but overgrown and unused.

Didn't Northampton generally call their end 'The Spion Kop', as opposed to just 'The Kop'?

[Patrick Thistle]

I can't contradict E10 about St Andrews. When I went there pre-redevelopment, the whole place was loud. I just always assumed the Kop were the leaders. Another point about that Kop though ; was it unique in being the only side terrace to be called a Kop? There were Kops at Anfield, both Sheffield grounds, Notts County, Tranmere, and Northampton, all of which were behind one goal.

Wrexham also had a Kop at one end. Not sure of its been redeveloped yet. I know it got closed a few years ago.

The Wrexham Kop used to do the whole routine with opposition goalies as they kick the ball where you go 'Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, YOU'RE SHIT AHHHHH!!!'
Except their version went

"Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, YOU'RE SHIT AHHHHH!!! FUCK OFF AHHHHH!!! YOU'VE GOT AIDS AHHHHH!!!"

God, I miss those derby games back in the 90s.

[Baptiste]

Is it me or has Preston changed tonight?

[Logan Mountstuart]

Mincers, not miners. Can't edit on phone.

[Logan Mountstuart]

"Unaccompanied by adults". That's maybe an even bigger issue than cameras or ends changing.

I mean what kid could afford 50 quid, let alone a train, and why can't parents let their kids go on their own any more? In the 70s and 80s they'd likely get their head kicked in but they still went.

When I was 13. my parents thought I was down the rec playing football, while I actually went to Nottingham from Stroud on a cheap away day. It was perfectly normal just to be out with your mates for 10 hours.

Modern parents, eh? Miners.

[Sporting]

I remember that at Old Trafford, at the Stretford End at least and probably in other parts of the ground, there were separate turnstiles for under 14s or something (not sure exactly what age it was). Quite a few times when I was there without a ticket adults would enter through these turnstiles, as the queues broke down into anarchy and people got panicky about actually getting in to see the game. (I'm pretty certain that although it may have been cheaper as a kid to get in this was not the main reason for doing so.)

I'm not sure that nowadays any separate turnstiles for kids exist in any grounds, as unaccompanied by adults is definitely a no-go...Prepared to be proven wrong again, though.

[treibeis]

So as a steward you could watch the game? I thought they were all meant to face the crowd.

At Bristol Rovers (and undoubtedly elsewhere) in the 1970s, it was the stewards who started (some of) the fights.

[Greenlander]

And as a follow on from James' point, was Filbert Street the only one that referred to theirs as the Spion Kop?

Not that anyone would know what our stands are called but before redevelopment the small terrace between the Devonport End and the Lyndhurst was always known as the Spion Kop. It's the bottom left of this picture and was useful for our scam whereby we'd buy a ticket for the more expensive Lyndhurst at the first home game then pay for the Spion Kop thereafter showing the back of the ticket with it's never changing Sunday Independent advert. We pretty much got through a whole season before getting rumbled. After that we'd buy two and shuttle back and forth to the toilets handing them across.



Not really a kop is it.

[nmrfox]

And as a follow on from James' point, was Filbert Street the only one that referred to theirs as the Spion Kop?

[jameswba]

Are there any grounds out there where the away fans have a particularly good section, even a section the home fans would like for themselves?

Not sure about home fans, but, during his time as Villa manager, Martin O'Neill wanted his side's fans in the lower tier of the North Stand. The away fans were thus shifted from there to part of the Doug Ellis stand. We'd need a Villa fan to say how much difference this made to the atmosphere. My feeling is that, when you've got something like the Holte End, you shouldn't worry too much about whether your fans also have the whole of the other end.

I can't contradict E10 about St Andrews. When I went there pre-redevelopment, the whole place was loud. I just always assumed the Kop were the leaders. Another point about that Kop though ; was it unique in being the only side terrace to be called a Kop? There were Kops at Anfield, both Sheffield grounds, Notts County, Tranmere, and Northampton, all of which were behind one goal.

[Kevin S]

Do you think that the pre kick-off coin toss is just for show then, and that the choice of ends has already been decided some time before the match (presumably with some kind of reciprocol arrangement between the teams for home and away matches)? Going back to Spain again, Barcelona nearly always play towards the left-hand goal in the first half of home matches.

Is it that the home team comes out and warms up in the half they want to defend first, and the away team never decides to choose 'ends' rather than kick off if they win the toss?

[treibeis]

Also, after years of singing my teenage
head off in the East End at Ashton Gate, going back to a rather sedentary Atyeo stand was a bit weird. The only time I saw away supporters in the East End was bloody scary Pompey fans in about 1973.

I can remember a home game against Leeds in the late 1970s. There was one bloke standing on his own near my father and me in the East End (near the first corner flag, which is where my father insisted on standing, even though (or because) the view was so bad).

All of a sudden, this bloke shouted, "Ah, bugger it" and then started singing, "We all love Leeds / And Leeds and Leeds / Leeds and Leeds ...", etc..

A foolish, yet ultimately courageous, fellow, he got his head kicked in.

[E10 Rifle]

Yeah the old away section at St Andrews was a pretty massive chunk of terrace behind the goal, though my recollection was the most vocal home fans were in the adjacent bit of the same terrace.

[jameswba]

Maybe a Birmingham fan could confirm this, but St Andrews is another ground where the main singing section was once on the side, on the Kop terrace. Since redevelopment of the Kop and Tilton Road End, the latter has become the noisiest section. At one point in its days as a terrace, it was split between home and away fans, as can be seen here :

https://www.footballgroundguide.com/...ham/index.html

At Maine Road, there was a period where the Kippax was the only terraced section. I remember going there with WBA in the 80s and sitting on bench seats behind the one goal (Platt Lane Stand?) On a later visit, we were in the opposite end, but there was a new Kippax Stand by then.

[Logan Mountstuart]

Classic example of singing support on a side of a ground: Lens.

https://youtu.be/MbkPcX7tvxY

I love Lens. Just your average Ligue 2 match.

Also, after years of singing my teenage
head off in the East End at Ashton Gate, going back to a rather sedentary Atyeo stand was a bit weird. The only time I saw away supporters in the East End was bloody scary Pompey fans in about 1973.

[ad hoc]

So as a steward you could watch the game? I thought they were all meant to face the crowd.

Depends on the job you're asked to do that day. In front of the crowd looking up at them and monitoring - look at the crowd. Concourse duty - can stand on the steps and watch the match for about 35 minutes both half. Manning the turnstiles - watch the match as if you were a paying fan from about 20 minutes in. Etc.

[Sporting]

Interesting what you write about Argentina.
There, I think it's compulsory for the home team to play towards its chanting section in the first half.

[Sporting]

So as a steward you could watch the game? I thought they were all meant to face the crowd.

[Sam]

Probably the most noticeable example of this came last year when Argentina played a couple of games at the Bombonera. For those not familiar with it, the Bombonera looks like this:



The main camera is located in the middle of the middle tier, so when watching a televised Boca game you see the 'flat' side of the stadium across the pitch (which is executive boxes, for the most part). But Argentina games have one set of pitchside advertising for the Argentine market, and another for the international market (not unlike most international matches really), so the local and international feeds have cameras across the stadium from one another. When Argentina play at the Monumental this isn't noticeable, because the Monumental looks basically the same whichever side of it you're on. But when they started playing at the Bombonera my Twitter mentions filled up with people watching the international feed, confused/seemingly offended at the fact they were seeing the stands rather than the boxes.

Are there any grounds out there where the away fans have a particularly good section, even a section the home fans would like for themselves?

When I worked as a steward at Old Trafford, getting put in the line between home and away fans (i.e. just inside the away section) in the East Stand, or at the front of the section right behind that corner flag, was my favourite assignment (when you're in the away end you really don't have anything to do but watch the game with the fans and, if necessary, remind people not to be arseholes, for the most part). The view from there was great. As (internally; unlike a few of my fellow student colleagues I wasn't enough of a dick to openly celebrate the goals) was being there when we ended Arsenal's 49-game unbeaten run.

In Argentine stadia away fans are only making a tentative comeback this season in some grounds, after several years of being banned. But the away end is practically always an end. In grounds like the Bombonera, the Monumental and the Cilindro (Racing), it's in the upper tier so not really visible from the main camera angle. Argentinos Juniors on the other hand only have three stands, and the away section of their ground is one entire side of the stadium – the side opposite the TV camera. So when Argentinos allow(ed) away fans in, they were much, much more visible than the home support.