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Salford (Disgustingly Rich) Lads' Club - Conference National 2018/19

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    Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post

    I'll ask my mate Tactical Genius for advice on a case for reparations.

    In all seriousness though, Peterborough and Wigan were in the league through the election system. The first few years of automatic promotion no one came up because the winning clubs didn't have a suitable set up in place.

    The financial doping is not separate at all. It has come in more and more as more and more opportunity is given to become a league club.

    Rushden were a vanity club that died and their stadium demolished for housing.

    In division 4 you are one shit season away from dropping out if the league and off the radar. Most of the ex league clubs that really plummeted were profoundly affected by losing league status.

    Sporting - my notable exceptions would be AFC Wimbledon, Accrington, Burton, Cheltenham, Wycombe

    A couple who have been worth having for a while: Yeovil, Boston, Barnet,

    Vanity projects/ unsustainable: Fleetwood, Morecambe, Forest Green, Rushden, Macclesfield, Scarborough

    Compared to what we've lost:
    Torquay
    York
    Halifax Town Nil
    Stockport
    Hereford
    Wrexham
    Chester
    Hartlepool
    Darlington

    So i I must be really old to think of Workington, Gateshead and Southport among the "what we've lost"?

    Interestimg you mentioned the early automatic promotion era; was it Kettering who used to keep winning the proto-Conference and staying down as their ground wasn't up to it?

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      I'm wondering if the first unsustainable vanity club of the Division Four promotion/relegation era was Colne Dynamoes. (Of which I was a season ticket holder.)

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        Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post

        A couple who have been worth having for a while: Yeovil, Boston, Barnet
        Ha ha. Aha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Ha.

        Fuck off.

        Dagenham & Redbridge got promoted with a team that was built in the 'right' way with other teams cast-offs and players bought from the Conf South, Isthmian and lower. We had nine not-worth-it-apparently years in the league, living within our means, with maybe one comfortable mid-table season; all of the others were either scrapping to get in the play-offs or avoid relegation, and I loved every last minute of it. Sorry to have upset you with our being pretty good for a few years. We're a doped club now so we might do it again some time (although given our record with squandering money when we have it, probably not), I apologise in advance if some venerable club having a bad year (or, more likely if that list is anything to go by, getting screwed over by some terrible owner or other) loses their place to us.

        Re; Gloucester City and their FA Trophy run in 97, Dagenham's run to the final that season was the making of the subsequent years of success; that team and the players that Ted Hardy was able to add to it were the basis of the team that won the Isthmian and were then fucked over by Boston/Evans/the FA a few years after that. Probably too much of a stretch to say that if John Stimson hadn't walloped in a winner at the end of that replay that things might have been different for both clubs now, but it's an intriguing thought. Good to hear that they're getting their ground back.

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          Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post

          I'll ask my mate Tactical Genius for advice on a case for reparations.

          In all seriousness though, Peterborough and Wigan were in the league through the election system. The first few years of automatic promotion no one came up because the winning clubs didn't have a suitable set up in place.

          The financial doping is not separate at all. It has come in more and more as more and more opportunity is given to become a league club.

          Rushden were a vanity club that died and their stadium demolished for housing.

          In division 4 you are one shit season away from dropping out if the league and off the radar. Most of the ex league clubs that really plummeted were profoundly affected by losing league status.

          Sporting - my notable exceptions would be AFC Wimbledon, Accrington, Burton, Cheltenham, Wycombe

          A couple who have been worth having for a while: Yeovil, Boston, Barnet,

          Vanity projects/ unsustainable: Fleetwood, Morecambe, Forest Green, Rushden, Macclesfield, Scarborough

          Compared to what we've lost:
          Torquay
          York
          Halifax Town Nil
          Stockport
          Hereford
          Wrexham
          Chester
          Hartlepool
          Darlington
          Four of those nine are now phoenix clubs having been wound up and the rest were financial basket cases when they went down and some still are yet it's the promoted sides that are unsustainable?

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            Darlington with their cosy stadium and sound finances lol

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              Teams in the premier league are also only one shit season away from relegation with devastating financial consequences... is promotion/relegation from the premier league a bad idea?

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                Boston as one of the worthwhile additions? Wow.

                Also the period where no-one came up was about a decade into automatic promotion/relegation. Barnet's first promotion and Wycombe's elevation came prior to the period where ground regs prevented sides coming up. The teams denied by that (Kidderminster, Macclesfield and Stevenage) were all promoted to the league afterwards anyway, two of them pretty swiftly so, and all went on to have decent stays as league clubs. None of these three were financially doped, either. They were all clubs who deserved their chance in the league, only for petty regulations to deny them for a while. Regulations that many of the Division 3 (as was) clubs of the time would also have failed, showing accurately just how unreasonable those rules were.
                Two of the clubs denied are in the league now, of course.

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                  Originally posted by Sits View Post
                  Interestimg you mentioned the early automatic promotion era; was it Kettering who used to keep winning the proto-Conference and staying down as their ground wasn't up to it?
                  Kidderminster 1993-94 - promoted after their second title in 1999-2000. League spell was shorter than I remember, only 5 seasons. Now appear mired in National League North (but then again, so were Stockport until this season)
                  Macclesfield 1994-95 - won it again in 1996-97, promoted as runners-up in Division 3 the following season, remained in the league until 2011-12 and of course returned to it this season
                  Stevenage 1995-96 - eventually made it in 2009-10, like Macclesfield promoted again immediately afterwards, unlike Macc maintained third tier status for three seasons rather than one, back in the fourth tier now

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Sits View Post


                    So i I must be really old to think of Workington, Gateshead and Southport among the "what we've lost"?

                    Interestimg you mentioned the early automatic promotion era; was it Kettering who used to keep winning the proto-Conference and staying down as their ground wasn't up to it?

                    I think that I'm slightly older than you (I'd have Barrow in there too) but Gateshead!!! When did we lose them?

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                      Thanks Janik, knew it began with a K.

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                        Maybe not Boston then. Maybe I was thinking of Dagenham & Redbridge. It's hard to keep track of the ones who didn't make it stick.

                        We've all debated this before and the same things come up. But my point is many non league clubs have been destroyed in the process as have league clubs, usually because of some crazy individual chasing that idea of league football.

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                          Originally posted by Nesta View Post
                          Teams in the premier league are also only one shit season away from relegation with devastating financial consequences... is promotion/relegation from the premier league a bad idea?
                          Not for this thread, perhaps, but probably, yes. Regularly modern football gets bewailed on this board - the doping, the panic sackings, the stockpiling of kids, English lads not getting to play etc. What is the motivator for 14 out of 20 clubs? Not getting relegated. So yeah, maybe it is a bad idea.

                          And then we have the effect on the division below. Clubs a hairs breadth away from going under, chasing that dream season up there atop mount Olympus with the gods. Ignoring the carnage around them and carcasses of those who failed.

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                            Originally posted by Via Newbury Park View Post

                            Ha ha. Aha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Ha.

                            Fuck off.

                            Dagenham & Redbridge got promoted with a team that was built in the 'right' way with other teams cast-offs and players bought from the Conf South, Isthmian and lower. We had nine not-worth-it-apparently years in the league, living within our means, with maybe one comfortable mid-table season; all of the others were either scrapping to get in the play-offs or avoid relegation, and I loved every last minute of it. Sorry to have upset you with our being pretty good for a few years. We're a doped club now so we might do it again some time (although given our record with squandering money when we have it, probably not), I apologise in advance if some venerable club having a bad year (or, more likely if that list is anything to go by, getting screwed over by some terrible owner or other) loses their place to us.

                            .
                            Not intended as a slight; a genuine oversight. Although you do come across a bit whiney here. An "Oi" would have been enough.

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                              Anyway, Notts County eh? Notts County! Still taking in the enormity of that.

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                                Originally posted by Sits View Post
                                Anyway, Notts County eh? Notts County! Still taking in the enormity of that.
                                Even though it took a decade, there was almost an inevitability about it after the whole Munto fiasco. No club survives that for very long without any consequences.
                                In other words, I blame Sol Campbell... no reason, he's just a sad, strange Tory twat.

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                                  Christ, I didn't realise AFC Fylde hosed a Brexit Party rally at their ground this weekend.
                                  Orient's official account cheekily retweeted a pic from that, comparing Farage's gig unfavourably with the crowd when the O's visited last November, before a few rightwing twats complained and it was deleted.

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                                    And to the topic at hand, for all the occasional instabilities, promotion/relegation from the non-league to the FL has been one of the most positive and beneficial things to happen in English football in my lifetime. Fron the Burnley-Orient game in 87 - still perhaps in the top two or three loudest crowds I've ever been in - on, I've never been in any doubt about what a basically good idea it is.

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                                      Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post

                                      Orient's official account cheekily retweeted a pic from that, comparing Farage's gig unfavourably with the crowd when the O's visited last November, before a few rightwing twats complained and it was deleted.
                                      Yeah, it was a reference to that on twitter which drew my attention to the rally, though it didn't say who the club mocking it were. Think I found out from a retweet of yours in the end.

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                                        I recall a guy who was involved in the Fans Trust takeover of Brentford who said the way to handle this was to make relegation and promotion something that happens every year - so every year, the top half of a division go up, and the bottom half go down, replaced by the bottom half of the division above and the top half of the division below. By making relegation and promotion 'normal' you'd reduce the fear factor and thus the financial doping. I remember thinking it was mad, but on reflection, the idea has some merit I think.

                                        The thing to remember with relegation was that the expansion of the football league in 1921 was to try and counter Rugby League; the Southern League had been integrated the year before as Division Three, then the upper echelons of the regional Northern and Midland leagues were creamed off to make Division Three North. As a result, the upper eschelons of the Northern and Midland non-leagues were weaker than the equivalent southern leagues. I wonder if that's why some of the teams who came up in the post 87 relegation/promotion without being backed by silly money have been disproportionately southern teams (Wycombe, Yeovil until now, Cheltenham, Barnet) as they were clubs that were missed out back in 1921.

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                                          Although there definitely appears to be a north/south divide the other way when it comes to the sixth-tier of late. Look at how the promoted teams from National League North both finished in this season's top six a division up, while the two that came up from the South were relegated emphatically. And while neither Chester nor Guiseley, relegated from the National League last season, came close to going straight back up, the two southern teams who dropped last season made easier work of NL South, finishing in the top two.

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                                            Just got my weekly travel info email from tfl. This week it's warning me about the big crowds expected in the Wembley Stadium area on Saturday. I think not...

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                                              Gateshead fans looking to rip it up and start again. Horrible times for them.

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                                                I hope it works for them.

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                                                  I don't really know the situation at Gateshead. I saw them lose in the Conference Play-Off Final to Cambridge in 2014, was that part of a boom that contributed to this bust?

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                                                    Jagging back to Salford, Google earth hasn't yet caught up with the comprehensive redevelopment of their Moor Lane ground, so you can still see what a cabbage patch they played on until just recently

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