UEFA Nations League

[ad hoc]

It was very close to it being three of the four World Cup finalists; now it's only one.

Run this by me. I'm completely confused.

[Kevin S]

Think he means semi finalists.

[Snake Plissken]

I thought that the simplest thing Southgate did was Make Playing Fun Again. The England team was such a joyless experience to watch with Capello and John Terry and all that shouting and honour and pashun. The ridiculous nationalism in the Press, backed by an endless series of World War II tunes from that fucking band. Snarling Rooney and WWI fighter pilot Hart. Generals persisting in tactics like playing Lampard and Gerrard together, no matter how many times they got slaughtered when going over the top. And ultimately, everyone had their eye on the money.

It was basically Gammon Football. Now replaced by Corbyn Soccer. A group of bright, young people who haven't had the enthusiasm kicked out of them by their self appointed elders in society yet. Ultimately didn't achieve their goal but got a hell of a lot closer than anyone expected. If they can keep the Momentum up, then at least we might have something to look forward to.

It's early and I've got too much blood in my caffeine stream.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Well, I'll admit I'm a convert to the Nations League. There were at least three games that went to dramatic conclusions that, Germany - Holland aside, I don't think friendlies would have. Would England have still been pressing for a winner in a friendly? Would Kane still have been on the pitch? We still have the rending of garments to come when a "big" nation misses out on Euro 2020 and Belarus get a place out of League D, but I quite like that too. If qualifiers were unseeded (and a two-round knockout) the law of averages would put at least one or two league D teams in the finals anyway.

[Duncan Gardner]

We still have the rending of garments to come when a "big" nation misses out on Euro 2020 and Belarus get a place out of League D, but I quite like that too

If a big fish can't manage to qualify as one of the top 20, then fails to limp past NI, Ruritania and Myfrendstan in the play-offs, then by definition they're no longer so big...

[Patrick Thistle]

Of England win the Nations League next summer does that mean they've qualified for Euro 2020? Will they still have to be in a qualifying group?

[tee rex]

Que sera, sera
Whatever will be, oh yes
We're going to Guimarães

Capacity 30,000. England's travelling fans, and assorted expats in Spain. June, in Portugal. Shortly after Brexit. Should all be fine.

[Kevin S]

Of England win the Nations League next summer does that mean they've qualified for Euro 2020? Will they still have to be in a qualifying group?

No. Yes.

The qualifying draw is quite soon - 2 December. The four teams in the Nations League finals will be in the smaller sized qualifying groups, so they can use the two 'spare' qualifying match days for the Nations League.

[Kevin S]

I'll put the pottery on the EC2020 thread.

[Jah Womble]

To be back in England for the World Cup was a real pleasure. Friends I watched World Cup games with, most of them regular attendees at Premier League or Championship games, were under no illusions.

Nobody saw Southgate as a tactical genius (yes, I know) but my lord they were relieved he wasn't Big Sam. Nobody was fooled into thinking we were suddenly a world beating team, or saw Harry Maguire as the new Franz Beckenbauer. But you know what, watching England was fun. They didn’t embarrass us. The thugs (scared off I suspect) stayed away and the fans who did go seemed to be quite civilised. The team came across as grounded and quashed a lot of the tabloid hysteria by laughing it off and being pretty humble.

With the usual targets of jingoism, thuggery and players so far up themselves they could lick their own tonsils now being absent, the remaining complaints are how England played, or they got a lucky draw, or the rule changes helped only them; with the fundamental theme being "they're not as good as you think they are". We already knew that.

In addition, this trend to devalue goals from set-pieces is an odd one. A brilliant dribble from the halfway line counts exactly the same as a ball going in off your arse when the centre-half wins a header at a corner. In some ways set-pieces are a sign of competent coaching. It points to planning and hard work on the training ground. It suggests a recognition of your weaknesses which allows you to focus on your strengths.

Would it be lovely to have an Mbappe or a Modric? Of course it would, but England doesn't. There's also a sweet delight in thinking of the steam coming out of some ears when England scores from a long throw.

This, entirely. Belittling something that never claimed any kind of genius seems the work of the bored or the disingenuous. Or more likely, both.

No. Yes.

The qualifying draw is quite soon - 2 December. The four teams in the Nations League finals will be in the smaller sized qualifying groups, so they can use the two 'spare' qualifying match days for the Nations League.

This is where it all gets a bit woolly for my liking.

[Flynnie]

I thought that the simplest thing Southgate did was Make Playing Fun Again. The England team was such a joyless experience to watch with Capello and John Terry and all that shouting and honour and pashun. The ridiculous nationalism in the Press, backed by an endless series of World War II tunes from that fucking band. Snarling Rooney and WWI fighter pilot Hart. Generals persisting in tactics like playing Lampard and Gerrard together, no matter how many times they got slaughtered when going over the top. And ultimately, everyone had their eye on the money.

It was basically Gammon Football. Now replaced by Corbyn Soccer. A group of bright, young people who haven't had the enthusiasm kicked out of them by their self appointed elders in society yet. Ultimately didn't achieve their goal but got a hell of a lot closer than anyone expected. If they can keep the Momentum up, then at least we might have something to look forward to.

It's early and I've got too much blood in my caffeine stream.

Certainly a fair bit of the "It's coming home" meme was driven by Corbyn Twitter, with some of the same people clutching pearls at it like they did for "The Absolute Boy".

[Ray de Galles]

I thought that the simplest thing Southgate did was Make Playing Fun Again.

Well, it was fun because they succeeded - as opposed to them succeeding because they were having fun.

Had England lost the penalties to Colombia then it would have been the default tournament for them and I'm sure the usual opprobrium and nasty post mortem would have ensued. Their prosaic style of play and struggles whenever they met a half decent team would have seen to that.

[Jah Womble]

Is this applicable post-World Cup? Because the recent performance in Spain might've been flawed but it wasn't 'prosaic'.

[Ray de Galles]

It's specific to the World Cup. England's game against Spain was a peculiar one, I would certainly characterise England's performance as effective because they undid Spain's laughable attempts to play a high defensive line by banging it long to their fast direct wide men and, as I recall, Kane had a fantastic game as link man. Overall though, I wouldn't say it was wildly different from their WC games in style.

[Jah Womble]

I'd agree that there are definite limitations, but the performances have generally been far more efficient since the World Cup - which did more to instill belief than anything else.

[Ray de Galles]

I only saw the very end of the England v Croatia game on Sunday (though that did encompass both England goals) but from that and what I've seen reported it had many of the elements of their WC performances. Dominate for a period but fail to score from the chances created , struggle for a long period when technically superior opposition get a grip on the game, score goals from set piece scrambles.

The key difference is certainly that it was a win against a good side. I did wonder what on earth Croatia were doing playing so openly and pushing forward so much at 0-1 and 1-1 though when either of those results would have done them well enough (though obviously only the former would have won the group). The fact they pushed the game in to a frantic open one always looked like it would ultimately benefit England when I'm sure they could have happily controlled the final stages far better than they did.

[NHH]

I thought that the simplest thing Southgate did was Make Playing Fun Again. The England team was such a joyless experience to watch with Capello and John Terry and all that shouting and honour and pashun. The ridiculous nationalism in the Press, backed by an endless series of World War II tunes from that fucking band. Snarling Rooney and WWI fighter pilot Hart. Generals persisting in tactics like playing Lampard and Gerrard together, no matter how many times they got slaughtered when going over the top. And ultimately, everyone had their eye on the money.

It was basically Gammon Football. Now replaced by Corbyn Soccer. A group of bright, young people who haven't had the enthusiasm kicked out of them by their self appointed elders in society yet. Ultimately didn't achieve their goal but got a hell of a lot closer than anyone expected. If they can keep the Momentum up, then at least we might have something to look forward to.

Hi - this is the Guardian Comment is Free. We'd love 400 words on this by lunchtime. Usual fee of reputation vouchers (giving way under duress to a grudging £90).

[Bored Of Education]

The thing about players is that they're usually right up to date when it comes up to tactics and coaching, and if they're at a big premier league club, they're ahead of most of the rest. It's the managers at club and country level that are miles behind, and frequently have no idea how best to deal with it. For instance we had four or five players at Stoke in the trap era, and people were saying that our problem was that our players were at unsophisticated sides like Stoke, but I remember Jonny Walters at the time talking about the level of tactical preparation they had to do at stoke, and that they would change formation six to seven times in a game depending on what situations unfolded.

This paragraph is contradictory. Who at Stoke was giving them that instruction and practice in order to carry it out if it is wasn't the manager? If you were to say that the "managers at...country level" (as opposed to "club and..."), then your point would make sense - although it is fairly sweeping - but, as you have included the club managers as well, you give the impression that players - or, perhaps, top players - are dictating the tactics and formations at clubs. I can see that , with many countries - especially lesser ones - this could very well be the case if they have come from more advanced coaching systems at the clubs but, again, you specifically mentioned clubs.

[Ray de Galles]

In friendly match news, Chris Gunter is currently leading out an, er, experimental Wales side as captain in Albania for his record 93rd cap (passing Neville Southall’s mark).

[jeanmid]

Certainly a fair bit of the "It's coming home" meme was driven by Corbyn Twitter, with some of the same people clutching pearls at it like they did for "The Absolute Boy".

Must have missed that, most of the pearl clutching about that was being done on here.

[Ray de Galles]

Well, we did have a couple of weeks of witless wankers bellowing it out everywhere without a clue of the original context.

[Ray de Galles]

There are apparently 600 home supporters and 1850 Wales fans at the game in Elbasan.

[Wouter D]

The Nations League, explained (in Dutch).

Translation:

The UEFA Nations League consists of four divisions. Every division is partitioned into four groups of three or four countries each. All group winners play each other on five fields. Those fields are computed by drawing of lots. If two countries draw an equally high lot, we look at the final table. The final table means nothing yet. Thus we prevent confusion and money. All countries without a C play in Group D, except for Macedonia and Albania. Because Albania didn't have a C anyway, their ticket automatically transfers to the winner of Group E, which, by the way, doesn't exist. The winner of Group A gets an all expenses paid weekend to the Maldives. The two weirdest thieves* play in the final for relegation. Yellow cards count double. So far, nothing new. But then. If a team plays on Tuesdays, the whole team gets a red card. That card contains a code. You enter that code on the server, and then you receive an envelope containing your new country. The winner, i.e., the yellow card, gets to choose the ball. For example. Suppose that Germany plays Macedonia, not on a Tuesday, but they get a red card anyway. Then Germany plays the final against themselves. Hence, every linesman gets five bonification seconds, which he can only answer with "yes" or "no". The playoffs work slightly differently. The four best runners-up are promoted on goal difference to the world championships in athletics. Everything of value is defenseless. In the afternoon, from the West, we see some sunny spells with a chance of promotion to Group L of the B division in pot 3. The former pope had been ill for a long time. In case of a tie in the group, the goalkeepers get to subtract twenty years from their age. Good to know: three to the power of right of way expires always. So: [jibberish jibberish Van Bommel]. If you think: "I still understand fuck all of this", then you qualify for the playoffs with the 17th-placed teams in Groups C through 9. And if this went just a little too fast for you, there is always this convenient mnemonic.

*joke doesn't translate and is in itself not all that funny. Just ignore it.

[Ray de Galles]

I like the subtle jacquard print on the Albania shirt :



While we’re here, who is that Scottish player and how did they bring him forward in time from 1983?

[Kevin S]

Tan United's Paterson.