Lazyitis - Gouching on the couch.

[SouthdownRebel]

Lazyitis - Gouching on the couch.

Jack Wilshere going off injured is about as surprising as corrupt politician.

[longeared]

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Why make a substitution in injury time? If Wilshere could walk off why not see if he can be strapped up / mended in the interval?

[SouthdownRebel]

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2-0. Probably game over then. Shame, Bournemouth were causing City some problems going forward.

[Outside Agent]

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The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: I don't know if I'd describe it as a punch, I mean you can see why he has his hands out like that, and it gets hammered off him. But I think the time has come to amend the rules so you can't accidentally handle the ball into the goal. It's kind of farcical

It is farcical. And that's why it shouldn't have stood. There would be an understanding in refereeing that you just don't allow a goal to be scored like that. That's why the referee himself and the referee's chief have already acknowledged that the goal shouldn't have stood.

Nef, in his typically patronising response, lists some of the criteria for judging handballs, but not all. Two such factors are whether the hand is in an 'unnatural position' and whether the player has used their arm to make themselves bigger. In both cases, Sanchez is guilty.

It's probably safe to say that if Arsenal conceded a goal like this, Wenger would be up in arms, And in fairness to him, as with Koscielny's goal at Burnley, he knows neither should have stood.

[Nefertiti2]

Lazyitis - Gouching on the couch.

Outside Agent wrote:

I don't know if I'd describe it as a punch, I mean you can see why he has his hands out like that, and it gets hammered off him. But I think the time has come to amend the rules so you can't accidentally handle the ball into the goal. It's kind of farcical

It is farcical. And that's why it shouldn't have stood. There would be an understanding in refereeing that you just don't allow a goal to be scored like that. That's why the referee himself and the referee's chief have already acknowledged that the goal shouldn't have stood.

Nef, in his typically patronising response, lists some of the criteria for judging handballs, but not all. Two such factors are whether the hand is in an 'unnatural position' and whether the player has used their arm to make themselves bigger. In both cases, Sanchez is guilty.

It's probably safe to say that if Arsenal conceded a goal like this, Wenger would be up in arms, And in fairness to him, as with Koscielny's goal at Burnley, he knows neither should have stood.

My "typically patronising response" is the official FA guidance on Handling the Ball, in full

Personally I think Matches need to refereed on the basis of the Laws on the game and guidance given to referees on their interpretation, ( i.e the actual "understanding among referees") rather than what some bloke on the internet thinks they ought to be.

I don't recommend listening to commentators who use various terms like "whether the hand is in an 'unnatural position'" and "whether the player has used their arm to make themselves bigger." since mostly they are talking bollocks. At best they are interpreting the interpretations.

It may well be that the rules need looking at again, but they were correctly interpreted in this case..

[Outside Agent]

Lazyitis - Gouching on the couch.

Nefertiti2 wrote:

I don't know if I'd describe it as a punch, I mean you can see why he has his hands out like that, and it gets hammered off him. But I think the time has come to amend the rules so you can't accidentally handle the ball into the goal. It's kind of farcical

It is farcical. And that's why it shouldn't have stood. There would be an understanding in refereeing that you just don't allow a goal to be scored like that. That's why the referee himself and the referee's chief have already acknowledged that the goal shouldn't have stood.

Nef, in his typically patronising response, lists some of the criteria for judging handballs, but not all. Two such factors are whether the hand is in an 'unnatural position' and whether the player has used their arm to make themselves bigger. In both cases, Sanchez is guilty.

It's probably safe to say that if Arsenal conceded a goal like this, Wenger would be up in arms, And in fairness to him, as with Koscielny's goal at Burnley, he knows neither should have stood.

My "typically patronising response" is the official FA guidance on Handling the Ball, in full

Personally I think Matches need to refereed on the basis of the Laws on the game and guidance given to referees on their interpretation, ( i.e the actual "understanding among referees") rather than what some bloke on the internet thinks they ought to be.

I don't recommend listening to commentators who use various terms like "whether the hand is in an 'unnatural position'" and "whether the player has used their arm to make themselves bigger." since mostly they are talking bollocks. At best they are interpreting the interpretations.

It may well be that the rules need looking at again, but they were correctly interpreted in this case..

The "understanding among referees" on this incident is that the goal shouldn't have stood. That's why the referee himself acknowledged this, as has every former referee who speaks to the media.

And you appear to be unaware that the phrases 'Unnatural position' and 'making yourself bigger' originate from the referees themselves. They're some of the considerations for judging handballs. So when you hear commentators using those terms, you're actually hearing commentators who have paid attention to what the referees are saying. Webb, Poll, Hackett, Gallagher et al use those phrases on TV and in their paper columns because they know the considerations in these situations. Its why lots of those handballs that John Terry got away with over the years have appeared on UEFA instructional DVD's - because although some of them were clearly ball-to-hand situations, Terry's arms were either in an unnatural position or deemed to be making himself bigger.

All laws are kept deliberately vague, because of the nature of the game. Fouls are considered red card offences when "excessive force" is used, and/or if the challenge is deemed "to endanger the safety of the opponent". Yet there's nothing written in the laws that states how to interpret "excessive" or what exactly constitutes "endangering one's safety". So referees are instructed on considerations such as possibility of winning the ball, as well as exposed studs, straight leg, two feet off ground etc. You won't find these written in the laws, but they're the referees considerations when judging a tackle. Similarly, you won't see many of the considerations for referees judgment of handballs written anywhere, but we know what they are. And we know what they are because the referees, both past and current, refer to them in discussion.

So when you say that you don't recommend listening to commentators who use these terms, you're basically saying to ignore the instructions given to referees.

[Nefertiti2]

Lazyitis - Gouching on the couch.

Every Ref?

However, speaking at full-time on BT Sport, former ref Webb said his ex-colleague made the right call.

"It certainly came off Alexis Sanchez's arm," said Webb. "And to be fair to Mark Clattenburg he's gone over to the assistant to talk to him as well. I can only conclude that they came to the conclusion that it wasn't deliberate.

"And when we see it back I don't think anybody in the world who sees that sequence of play can say that Sanchez meant to handle that."If I was a Hull fan, a Hull player, the Hull coach I'd feel bitterly disappointed that I've had this really bad stroke of luck gone against me.

"But Sanchez does nothing other than try and play the ball with his left leg. As his left leg goes up, naturally his right arm goes up for balance. It pings around in there, comes off the keeper and hits his arm and goes in the goal."[It's] Certainly not intentional. The law requires the handball to be an intentional act and it wasn't. So as the law is written it was a correct decision by Clattenburg.

[GCostanza]

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Exactly.

Storm in a thimble.

[Outside Agent]

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Interesting reaction from Webb. He's playing the long-game, and quite cleverly too. He has already moved into position in the USA, where he'll be in as Head of Referees by next year. And once Clattenburg completes the full-set by officiating at the World Cup Finals, he'll be off to America to finish his career. Where his boss will be Webb. Clever stuff, Howard, backing your (future) man like that.

Of course, referees, like myopic fans, can justify decisions and deem them correct or incorrect as suits their agenda, thanks to the laws grey areas. If I was a referee, I'd certainly be falling back on any missed handball by claiming it wasn't intentional, since intention is what is mentioned in the law. But just as you can claim that the challenge which broke Luke Shaw's leg in Eindhoven was a perfectly fair one based on what's written in the the laws, yet it's the factors for consideration that makes it a red card offence, you can just as easily defend both Koscielny's & Sanchez's goals based on what's written in law, yet the considerations would see referees call the foul.

The game is full of differences of interpretation anyway. What a defender gets away with in his own penalty area when getting physical with an attacker is always a lot more than when an attacker does similar to a defender. Because the implications of an awarding of a penalty are much greater than the awarding of a defensive free kick. Ditto the goalkeeper. Similarly, a referee might not punish a defender with the concession of a penalty kick for a handball like Sanchez's, but he certainly wouldn't allow a goal be scored from one. And if the officials had seen that one on Saturday, they would certainly have disallowed it.

[Gerontophile]

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Is Petr Cech injured?

[Gerontophile]

Lazyitis - Gouching on the couch.

Napoli score!

A shot from miles out by Insigne and the keeper was caught well out.

Robben scores for Bayern. A beauty.

[Nefertiti2]

Lazyitis - Gouching on the couch.

Outside Agent wrote: Interesting reaction from Webb. He's playing the long-game, and quite cleverly too. He has already moved into position in the USA, where he'll be in as Head of Referees by next year. And once Clattenburg completes the full-set by officiating at the World Cup Finals, he'll be off to America to finish his career. Where his boss will be Webb. Clever stuff, Howard, backing your (future) man like that.

Of course, referees, like myopic fans, can justify decisions and deem them correct or incorrect as suits their agenda, thanks to the laws grey areas. If I was a referee, I'd certainly be falling back on any missed handball by claiming it wasn't intentional, since intention is what is mentioned in the law. But just as you can claim that the challenge which broke Luke Shaw's leg in Eindhoven was a perfectly fair one based on what's written in the the laws, yet it's the factors for consideration that makes it a red card offence, you can just as easily defend both Koscielny's & Sanchez's goals based on what's written in law, yet the considerations would see referees call the foul.

The game is full of differences of interpretation anyway. What a defender gets away with in his own penalty area when getting physical with an attacker is always a lot more than when an attacker does similar to a defender. Because the implications of an awarding of a penalty are much greater than the awarding of a defensive free kick. Ditto the goalkeeper. Similarly, a referee might not punish a defender with the concession of a penalty kick for a handball like Sanchez's, but he certainly wouldn't allow a goal be scored from one. And if the officials had seen that one on Saturday, they would certainly have disallowed it.

So one referee endorsing a decision by another - (which has been recognised as correct within the laws by many who have contributed to the thread who are fans neither of Clattenburg nor of Arsenal) now requires full-on conspiracy theory.

[Gerontophile]

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Man U are 1-0 up at St Etienne through Mkhitaryan.

Schalke are 1-1 at home to PAOK.

[Gerontophile]

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Real Madrid are 2-0 down at Valencia. About 30 minutes gone.

[Gerontophile]

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Ronaldo pulls one back with a lovely header just on half-time. 2-1 Valencia.

[Calvert]

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Spuds budgiehearts 1-1 at Wembley with Gent.
Can't believe that's the first red card ever for Alli. Doorty wee fucker. That was a shocker

[Calvert]

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Man, this is hilarious.
Nearly as funny as Dier's attempt to play the Gent forward offside.
2-2 and bonsoir Vienna.

[Calvert]

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Spurs have lost not only this tie, it appears they've lost the will to live also.
They've just brought Jansson on.