Bad news from South America

[Sam]

Bad news from South America

cantagalo wrote: Conmebol have officially awarded the Copa Sudamericana title and a place in next year's Libertadores to Chapecoense.

Have they? There's nothing on their website about it.

[cantagalo]

Bad news from South America

Sorry - should have qualified it by saying 'Globo have reported that.....'

[Nefertiti2]

Bad news from South America

evilC wrote:

Interview with Arsenal's Gabriel after yesterday's game. I guess all Brazilian footballers are affected like this.

And Wenger played him when he was in a state like that? Christ! He's even further removed from rational thought than I believed!

Your persistent digs about Wenger are very tiresome- on this thread they are also singularly inappropriate.

I imagine it was Gabriel 's choice to play -in part as a way of paying his respects .

[cantagalo]

Bad news from South America

cantagalo wrote: DGAC, the Bolivian civil aviation authority, has suspended LaMia, accusing them of flying without following safety protocols.

The pilot was questioned before the flight by an employee of the national aviation agency about the adequacy of the flight plan. Apparently, planes should have a minimum of 45 minutes of spare fuel in case of emergencies. Why this advice was ignored is unclear.

More news is emerging about this.

The employee, Celia Castedo Monastério, questioned the pilot about the flight plan pointing out that the fuel capacity was exactly the same as the length of the flight and that this was unsafe. The pilot responded by telling her not to worry and that he'd do the flight in less time.

She did not have the authority to prevent the flight from going ahead.

[Sam]

Bad news from South America

Fucking hell. Once more for the encore: death was too good for him.

One statement CONMEBOL have released is a reiteration that their activities are currently suspended until further notice. They've had to release this because some utter bellend started a rumour that they were going to insist that the final actually be played. Whether they award the trophy to either team or not, I think it's probably a safe assumption that that is one thing that's never going to happen.

[Hot Pepsi]

Bad news from South America

So AN had a chance to win both the Copa Sudamerica and Copa Liberatores? Isn't that like winning both the Europa Cup and Champions League? How do they have time to be in both?

[danielmak]

Bad news from South America

Hot Pepsi wrote: So AN had a chance to win both the Copa Sudamerica and Copa Liberatores? Isn't that like winning both the Europa Cup and Champions League? How do they have time to be in both?

Unlike the CL and EL, the Libertadores and Sudamericana do not run at the same time. One runs for 6 months (roughly) at the beginning of the calendar year and the other runs during the second 6 months (roughly). This will change going forward to match the way the CL and EL work, so teams won't be able to win both competitions, although teams dumped from the Libertadores will land in the Sudamericana. The competitions, last I read, will run (again, roughly) during the 12 month calendar, which is still a mess in terms of transfers.

Back to the flight. It seems insane to me that making the trip faster has anything to do with fuel. Yes, miles/KM per hour can have some minor affect on fuel economy but in general the fuel consumption isn't going to change. And I find it ironic that CONMEBOL has suspended dealings with this company when the company owner was flying the plane and died in the crash. It seems to me that there is no longer a company with which to contract given these situations.

To follow up on Cantagalo's point about connections among players, I've been watching the past few rounds of the Brasilian Serie A during the past few weeks and the commentary about each player and coach is rarely short when it comes to resume: he played for team a, b, c, d, and e (in Brazil alone) plus team x, y, and z in some combination of European nations, Middle Eastern leagues, and maybe China. There is very little stability for players and coaches who are not in the upper echelon of elite status (e.g., Roberto Carlos, Cafu, Kaka, etc.).

[Southport Zeb]

Bad news from South America

Until this year the Copa Libretadores has been played in the first half (roughly) of the year, while the Copa Sudamericana has been played in the second half. From next year both competitions will be held concurrently so a team won't be able to win both (a few teams will still get to play in both as some sides eliminated from the Libretadores will get dropped into the Sudamericana).

In the early years of European competition it was possible to enter more than one competition but that got tidied up fairly quickly (it was a time when the predecessor of the Europa League took three years to finish as ties were timed to coincide with trade fairs).

[cantagalo]

Bad news from South America

The future of the final round of the Brasileiro is now threatened by players who are organising a campaign to have it cancelled.

This would be quite understandable but there remains the question of the final relegation place. Prominent in the campaign are players from Internacional who are currently in 17th place and favourites to be relegated for the first time in their history. Players from Palmeiras, who are due to play at another relegation-threatened team Vitória, have also said they do not want to play.

I could go along with this if the current league positions were maintained i.e. Inter would be relegated, but they have not consented to this. They have already lodged an appeal with the STJD to deduct points from Vitória on what look like the very spurious grounds that Vitória fielded an illegible player. This could end very messily.

A cynical observer might conclude that Inter could be using the tragedy to create grounds for a further appeal.

[Hot Pepsi]

Bad news from South America

Southport Zeb wrote: Until this year the Copa Libretadores has been played in the first half (roughly) of the year, while the Copa Sudamericana has been played in the second half. From next year both competitions will be held concurrently so a team won't be able to win both (a few teams will still get to play in both as some sides eliminated from the Libretadores will get dropped into the Sudamericana).

Interesting.
If that's the case then how do they not just end up with the same field of teams, and in that case, what's the point?

[Southport Zeb]

Bad news from South America

They have different criteria for qualifying. In general Sudamericana places go to sides finishing lower in the table than those that enter Libretadores. However sides right at the top of the table can get into both (in most countries).

In Atletico Nacional's case they qualified for each tournament on different (but connected) grounds. They qualified for the Libretadores as champions of the 2015 Finalizacion (the second of the two league competitions in Colombia each year). Their Sudamericana qualification was as winners of the 2016 Superliga (a two legged playoff between the winners of the Apertura and Finalizacion).

[Sam]

Bad news from South America

cantagalo wrote: The future of the final round of the Brasileiro is now threatened by players who are organising a campaign to have it cancelled.

This would be quite understandable but there remains the question of the final relegation place. Prominent in the campaign are players from Internacional who are currently in 17th place and favourites to be relegated for the first time in their history. Players from Palmeiras, who are due to play at another relegation-threatened team Vitória, have also said they do not want to play.

I could go along with this if the current league positions were maintained i.e. Inter would be relegated, but they have not consented to this. They have already lodged an appeal with the STJD to deduct points from Vitória on what look like the very spurious grounds that Vitória fielded an illegible player. This could end very messily.

A cynical observer might conclude that Inter could be using the tragedy to create grounds for a further appeal.

If I were in charge of the CBF, I'd have announced Inter's relegation on Tuesday after their cunt of a president came out with that line about how yes it's very sad what's happened to Chapecoense, but can't everyone see that Inter are facing the possibility of their own club tragedy - by which he meant relegation.

Regarding whether LaMia continue to exist or not, I've seen reports saying the pilot was a co-owner or partner, rather than sole owner of the company, so they presumably are still in business. Although hopefully for not much longer.

Boca Juniors have become (as far as I'm aware) the first club to announce they'll no longer use charter flights to get to matches.

[cantagalo]

Bad news from South America

The Inter players led by Alex have 'clarified' their position.

They reiterated their unwillingness to play the final game, even if it means having to accept relegation. However, if ordered to play by the CBF, they would do so. They also supported the right of the club to continue the legal action to get points deducted from Vitória.

The actions of the club have met with an extremely hostile reaction in Brazil. Even if they hadn't been scheming in the wake of Brazil's worst ever football tragedy, there is widespread revulsion at big clubs attempting to avoid relegation in the courtroom, the most recent being Fluminense in 2013.

[Sam]

Bad news from South America

Argentina's Radio La Red have broadcast a recording in which the Argentine transport minister privately tells someone that when the Argentine national team took the plane to Belo Horizonte for their game against Brazil a few weeks ago, it touched down with only 15 minutes of fuel left in the tank. In case anyone's missed it being mentioned further up the thread/elsewhere, this is the same plane that crashed on Monday night.

[Ray de Galles]

Bad news from South America

Sam wrote: In ongoing homage news, on top of every club in Argentina wearing black armbands and Primera clubs wearing a black Chapecoense badge with ribbon motif on their shirts this weekend, River Plate have announced they'll wear a one-off kit with a green shirt and green shorts in their match, and (and I fear this might be the moment this weekend that tips me over the edge) San Lorenzo will run out for their game wearing the shirts they got from the Chapecoense squad in the post-match shirt swaps following the semi-final second leg.

A small gesture but some Wimbledon supporters suggested the team wear their two-tone green third kit for their televised cup tie at Curzon Ashton on Sunday rather than the planned yellow change kit. The club agreed with the suggestion and the FA have endorsed the switch.

[danielmak]

Bad news from South America

cantagalo wrote: The Inter players led by Alex have 'clarified' their position.

They reiterated their unwillingness to play the final game, even if it means having to accept relegation. However, if ordered to play by the CBF, they would do so. They also supported the right of the club to continue the legal action to get points deducted from Vitória.

The question will be if the players who say they shouldn't play, which is understandable, will stick around next season when Internacional are in Serie B. As much as I dislike cheating Juve, I did admire the players who stayed with the side when they were dropped to Serie B after the scandal. Of course, those players were likely still paid the same salary but most top quality players aren't wanting to play in the second division.

[cantagalo]

Bad news from South America

This may turn out to be baseless speculation but I would be asking just why a tiny Bolivian company seems to have been the preferred carrier for so many South American teams.

[ursus arctos]

Bad news from South America

I would suggest that Occam would have a likely answer to that question.

[Vulgarian Visigoth]

Bad news from South America

Besides fining LaMia, the Bolivian civil aviation authority should also have a good look at themselves and revise their procedures which apparently preclude them from stopping a flight which doesn't follow their own security protocols.

[cantagalo]

Bad news from South America

I have never understood why, having been unable to refuel in Cobija, the pilot did not do so in Bogotá, 300km south of Medellin.

It has been revealed that refuelling in Bogotá would have delayed the flight by an hour and cost 10,000 Reais (nearly £2,500).

Some observers are pointing to a potential conflict of interest with the pilot being an owner/part-owner of the company.

[Sam]

Bad news from South America

cantagalo wrote: This may turn out to be baseless speculation but I would be asking just why a tiny Bolivian company seems to have been the preferred carrier for so many South American teams.

Entirely unconnected, I'm sure, to CONMEBOL's tweets in recent days of statements from associations across the continent denying that they were obliged by CONMEBOL to use any particular airlines. Which are in turn entirely unconnected to suggestions that some CONMEBOL officials and their associates have interests in charter airlines used by these teams.

Anyway, CONMEBOL tweeted confirmation a short while ago that Chapecoense are the Copa Sudamericana champions.

[Sam]

Bad news from South America

Oh, and Argentina's La Nación sent a correspondent to Chapecó to cover the memorial service over the weekend. While there he spoke to club officials, who say that the club doesn't want to lose the family and community spirit it's had until now, and as such they're going to try as far as possible to rebuild the squad with youth players and give trialists chances and whatnot, rather than signing some of the star names who've been rumoured as happy to come and play for them for free (Ronaldinho and Juan Román Riquelme have both been mentioned).

[Lang Spoon]

Bad news from South America

Which sounds very sensible. I'm not sure either Ronny or Riquelme would be much more use these days than a fart in a trance.

[cantagalo]

Bad news from South America

A couple of updates:

The final round of the Brasileiro will take place next Sunday with 9 games. Chapecoense v Atlético Mineiro will be recorded as a 'double walkover' with both clubs registering a 3-0 defeat.

It is now unlikely that Chape will have 3 years' immunity from relegation. Both the CBF and acting club president Ivan Tozzo are against the idea.

[Patrick Thistle]

Bad news from South America

Sam wrote: rather than signing some of the star names who've been rumoured as happy to come and play for them for free (Ronaldinho and Juan Román Riquelme have both been mentioned).

And Eidur Gudjohnssen apparently.