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    #76
    Bad news from South America

    And in more dignified news, the event (service? Commemoration?) held at the Atanasio Girardot by Atlético Nacional was quite something. Fox Sports televised it to the continent, and while I was a little uneasy with journalists with mics asking for people's thoughts before it got going, I was grateful to them for showing it afterwards - it seemed like the entire continent was watching, and if Chapecoense are now everyone's second club, Nacional seem to have become their third. Fox Sports Brasil showed a black screen and total silence for 90 minutes.

    The Girardot was full up, and a reported 120,000 people had to be locked out: from the look of the TV pictures, they remained outside for the duration.

    (Not sure who took the original picture, but I saw it tweeted by @AnaKiCar.)

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      #77
      Bad news from South America

      Sam wrote: In other news, the acting president of Chapecoense says the CBF president is trying to push the club to fulfill their fixture against Atlético Mineiro on the 11th December. 'Play the kids and the players who stayed behind,' is what he claims he was told. Astonishing.
      The request may be rooted in self-interest, but the club might take that advice as a means to facilitate a public catharsis, and a way of "kickstarting" the future.

      Almost six decades after the Munich aircrash, people still remember/know about Man Utd's FA Cup tie against Sheffield Wednesday, because of everything it represented -- helped by a 3-0 win, of course. The December 11 game could become such a moment in Chapecoense's history.

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        #78
        Bad news from South America

        Indeed, but they shouldn't feel obliged to do it if they don't want to.

        There have since been suggestions that Del Nero was actually suggesting playing it as a benefit match, and not counting it towards the league. But to put it mildly, Chapecoense's president didn't look like a man who'd taken the idea kindly when he told the press about it.

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          #79
          Bad news from South America

          If it is true and the plane went down due to a lack of fuel and there was no technical issue meaning unexpected fuel loss, it is absolutely unforgivable. Of all the possible reasons for a plane to crash, pilot error in judging fuel level must be the most stupid. It is so dumb, reckless and irresponsible that at this stage and despite the leaked recordings, I still can't believe this caused it.

          There should be 0% margin for human error with something like this and I daresay if this is the cause there will be radical changes to flight rules to ensure this never happens again.

          Comment


            #80
            Bad news from South America

            Geoffrey de Ste. Croix wrote: If it is true and the plane went down due to a lack of fuel and there was no technical issue meaning unexpected fuel loss, it is absolutely unforgivable. Of all the possible reasons for a plane to crash, pilot error in judging fuel level must be the most stupid. It is so dumb, reckless and irresponsible that at this stage and despite the leaked recordings, I still can't believe this caused it.

            There should be 0% margin for human error with something like this and I daresay if this is the cause there will be radical changes to flight rules to ensure this never happens again.
            Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought there already was a strict stipulation that any aircraft, any passenger aircraft anyway, must be carrying enough fuel to reach both its destination and its designated alternate airport?

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              #81
              Bad news from South America

              Sam wrote: And in more dignified news, the event (service? Commemoration?) held at the Atanasio Girardot by Atlético Nacional was quite something.
              That's certainly is something quite special, but this clip of video showing when 71 doves were released and flew off together into the sky must have been an incredibly emotional moment.

              Comment


                #82
                Bad news from South America

                Sam wrote: And in more dignified news, the event (service? Commemoration?) held at the Atanasio Girardot by Atlético Nacional was quite something. Fox Sports televised it to the continent, and while I was a little uneasy with journalists with mics asking for people's thoughts before it got going, I was grateful to them for showing it afterwards - it seemed like the entire continent was watching, and if Chapecoense are now everyone's second club, Nacional seem to have become their third. Fox Sports Brasil showed a black screen and total silence for 90 minutes.

                The Girardot was full up, and a reported 120,000 people had to be locked out: from the look of the TV pictures, they remained outside for the duration.

                (Not sure who took the original picture, but I saw it tweeted by @AnaKiCar.)
                It was a quite remarkable wasn't it?

                I have no idea how they managed to organise such a dignified and moving ceremony at such short notice. There was a recital by the Medellín Philharmonic Orchestra, a message from the Pope, an appearance by helicopters that took part in the rescue, flowers thrown on the pitch by a crowd of 52,000 all dressed in white.

                And this is the crowd outside the stadium.

                Comment


                  #83
                  Bad news from South America

                  Reginald Christ wrote:
                  Originally posted by Geoffrey de Ste. Croix
                  If it is true and the plane went down due to a lack of fuel and there was no technical issue meaning unexpected fuel loss, it is absolutely unforgivable. Of all the possible reasons for a plane to crash, pilot error in judging fuel level must be the most stupid. It is so dumb, reckless and irresponsible that at this stage and despite the leaked recordings, I still can't believe this caused it.

                  There should be 0% margin for human error with something like this and I daresay if this is the cause there will be radical changes to flight rules to ensure this never happens again.
                  Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought there already was a strict stipulation that any aircraft, any passenger aircraft anyway, must be carrying enough fuel to reach both its destination and its designated alternate airport?
                  Yeah, this is what I am trying to fathom out. I know nothing about flying but if there was one thing I assume would be in the first day of pilot's school, it would be "make sure there's enough fuel". That's what makes me think there must be a technical fault. Surely a pilot would not and could not take that risk, certainly in 21st Century aviation.

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Bad news from South America

                    It looks like that was exactly the risk that was taken. The distance from Santa Cruz to Medellín is almost exactly the same as the range of that plane on a full tank of fuel. The flight was running late. The first potential refuelling point in Northern Bolivia was not available at night. The second in Bogota was ignored. It seems that the delay caused by the other plane making an emergency landing caused the fuel to run out.

                    Atlético Nacional also used this company for flights in previous rounds. Their striker Borjá said that the players had complained about delays caused by regular refuelling stops.

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Bad news from South America

                      cantagalo wrote: The first potential refuelling point in Northern Bolivia was not available at night.
                      How did they not know that in advance? Surely that's not something that the owners of the refuelling point would neglect to publicise? It's not only a horrible tragedy, it's an outrage.

                      Comment


                        #86
                        Bad news from South America

                        cantagalo wrote: Atlético Nacional also used this company for flights in previous rounds. Their striker Borjá said that the players had complained about delays caused by regular refuelling stops.
                        These people live on a different planet from me.

                        Comment


                          #87
                          Bad news from South America

                          Perhaps I'm 'moving on' too soon, here, but has anyone mentioned what format the 'donating' of players by other clubs might take?

                          In the NHL (and the NBA too, I think) whenever there's an expansion team, the other established teams each have to create a shortlist of a few of their peripheral players that the expansion team(s) can choose from. No team can lose more than 2 or 3 players in this 'expansion draft' so that no one team gets more disadvantaged than any other (relatively-speaking) as the better of the players provided to this pool of talent would presumably be chosen while the lesser ones would be left. I think it would be good if a similar process were used in this instance.

                          I know the player personnel structures are very different in American sports from those in other nations, so I'm not sure if such a set-up would work in these circumstances. However, it would mean that Chapecoense would then probably have a decent pool of players to choose from and it would all be very transparent and 'above board'. The last thing the team could do with, I'm sure, is any kind of controversy surrounding the rebuilding of the team, that's all.

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Bad news from South America

                            Similarly, and I hope this doesn't come across as crass, but it would be nice to believe that Manchester United could find it in their hearts to donate money to Chapecoense. I don't know what Torino's financial situation is but if there's one thing United aren't short of it's cash. It would be the human thing to do.

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Bad news from South America

                              Reginald Christ wrote:
                              Originally posted by cantagalo
                              The first potential refuelling point in Northern Bolivia was not available at night.
                              How did they not know that in advance? Surely that's not something that the owners of the refuelling point would neglect to publicise? It's not only a horrible tragedy, it's an outrage.
                              They were going to use it for refuelling if they had been allowed to fly direct from São Paulo but ANAC regulations prevented a Bolivian company flying from Brazil to Colombia.

                              So Chape had to take a commercial flight to Santa Cruz in Bolivia. Due to the delay, it was too dark to refuel at night as the airport at Cobija does not have adequate lighting.

                              Why the pilot did not refuel at Bogota is still a mystery.

                              Comment


                                #90
                                Bad news from South America

                                Geoffrey de Ste. Croix wrote:
                                Originally posted by cantagalo
                                Atlético Nacional also used this company for flights in previous rounds. Their striker Borjá said that the players had complained about delays caused by regular refuelling stops.
                                These people live on a different planet from me.
                                To be fair, I think he was arguing that for long distance journeys it would be safer to travel on a larger plane and not rely on a small Bolivian company whose entire fleet amounts to three planes, two of which were out of use undergoing maintenance.

                                Comment


                                  #91
                                  Bad news from South America

                                  This is Fox Sports coverage of last night's commemorations in Chapecó and Medellín.

                                  It's quite stunning.

                                  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jxM4LDYqcjc

                                  Comment


                                    #92
                                    Bad news from South America

                                    Atlético Mineiro have reportedly put two fingers up to the CBF by saying that they will not field a team and take a forfeit if they are forced to play Chape in the last round of matches.

                                    Good on them.

                                    evilC, the "expansion draft" exists in all North American pro sports that have expanded (even proper football), but I'm not sure it is the right model here, given that Chapecoense have a fully functioning reserve and youth team system (whereas NA expansion teams have nothing). Loans on economically attractive terms for a season or two strike me as the best way to ensure that the team can fulfill its fixtures while at the same time allowing talented players from the lower ranks to develop.

                                    Comment


                                      #93
                                      Bad news from South America

                                      Well done Atlético.

                                      Meanwhile, it has been revealed that LaMia had flown between Santa Cruz and Medellín once before, on August 22nd this year. On that occasion they refuelled in Cobija.

                                      The flight from Santa Cruz to Cobija took 1h 30mins. From Cobija to Medellín it took 3h 14mins.

                                      Comment


                                        #94
                                        Bad news from South America

                                        cantagalo wrote:
                                        Originally posted by Geoffrey de Ste. Croix
                                        Originally posted by cantagalo
                                        Atlético Nacional also used this company for flights in previous rounds. Their striker Borjá said that the players had complained about delays caused by regular refuelling stops.
                                        These people live on a different planet from me.
                                        To be fair, I think he was arguing that for long distance journeys it would be safer to travel on a larger plane and not rely on a small Bolivian company whose entire fleet amounts to three planes, two of which were out of use undergoing maintenance.
                                        Point taken.

                                        Comment


                                          #95
                                          Bad news from South America

                                          Reginald Christ wrote: Similarly, and I hope this doesn't come across as crass, but it would be nice to believe that Manchester United could find it in their hearts to donate money to Chapecoense. I don't know what Torino's financial situation is but if there's one thing United aren't short of it's cash. It would be the human thing to do.
                                          Not sure why they should.

                                          Comment


                                            #96
                                            Bad news from South America

                                            Because of the plane-crash history connection, I assume.

                                            Plus, the aforementioned pile of cash.

                                            If this were here, it would probably be safe to assume that the players all had life insurance to take care of their families and that the club and the airline would be insured.

                                            My guess is that a professional athlete in excellent cardiovascular shape could get a lot of insurance pretty cheap. But I don't know how it works in Brazil.

                                            Certainly, suing the airline wouldn't help. They don't have any money. In America, they'd probably try to sue the airport and the government somehow, but that's here, not South America.

                                            Comment


                                              #97
                                              Bad news from South America

                                              DGAC, the Bolivian civil aviation authority, has suspended LaMia, accusing them of flying without following safety protocols.

                                              The pilot was questioned before the flight by an employee of the national aviation agency about the adequacy of the flight plan. Apparently, planes should have a minimum of 45 minutes of spare fuel in case of emergencies. Why this advice was ignored is unclear.

                                              Comment


                                                #98
                                                Bad news from South America

                                                Interview with Arsenal's Gabriel after yesterday's game. I guess all Brazilian footballers are affected like this.

                                                Comment


                                                  #99
                                                  Bad news from South America

                                                  Yes, Gabriel was at Vitória with Caio Júnior in 2013 just before he moved to Villarreal. And you're correct - in a country where managers and players move around so rapidly, I would imagine that most Brazilian professional players have a personal connection with someone on that plane.

                                                  Caio Júnior is a case in point. He had a reputation as a journeyman manager - 20 clubs in 15 years. However, he always seemed to have something about him. He was quietly intelligent and highly regarded within the game but, as is the norm in Brazil, never given long enough to show what he could really do. It seemed that he had finally found his niche at Chapecoense.

                                                  Comment


                                                    Bad news from South America

                                                    Not only Brazilians. To pick an entirely random example with which I happen to be familiar, Manchester United's first and second choice goalkeepers could both be forgiven for needing a few minutes when they heard about it: David De Gea used to share a locker with one of the victims at Atlético de Madrid, and Sergio Romero was on that same plane (along with the rest of the Argentina squad) just a couple of weeks before it crashed, travelling to the World Cup qualifier against Brazil.

                                                    Hell, my girlfriend and I are only at two removes from some of the victims: one of her colleagues is a Brazilian who used to work in TV production and knew (in passing) a few of the journalists, while another of them used to present a TV show in Brazil with Tim Vickery. It's a remarkably small world, at times.

                                                    That's not intended to undermine your point though, Nef. From my vantage point it's being treated as a continental tragedy, and it's by far the biggest example I've seen of South American solidarity since I came here (the reaction has been some distance more wall-to-wall even than it was when Fidel Castro died), but it's clear that in Brazil it's run even deeper. I doubt there's a single person connected with Brazilian football who hasn't been entirely preoccupied with it in the last few days, the president of the CBF apart...

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