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    #51
    Bad news from South America

    Of the football-related crashes, the one I didn't know was the Alianza Lima crash. They are (and were), like UTD, a big side (one of the top two in Peru). Torino were also a top side but never seemed to recover. Chapecoense seem to be in a much tougher spot since this is not a traditional giant in Brazil, although they've had recent success in Copa Sudamericana.

    The info that Sam reports about the flight itself is fascinating. My first assumption when I read the details in this thread, I assumed that this was another case of some company putting profit over safety. But when the boss is flying the plane and risking his own life, that make for a very complicated scenario. I haven't been to South America but read enough about Bolivia that there seems to be a general risk linked to travel given the insanely winding mountain roads.

    The news coverage seems to reflect the worst of what is happening right now: being first to a story is more important than being accurate (i.e., reports about PSG, reports about donations and loanees). To loop this last point back to the first point, it does seem that perhaps a global outreach would put this side back at a solid level of play, but, of course, none of that helps with the emotional scars which I assume affected other teams who have suffered from the same type of loss.

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      #52
      Bad news from South America

      Bolivian giants The Strongest also had their first team wiped out in an air crash in 1969, and rebuilt themselves largely thanks to the generosity of others (not least Boca Juniors, who as well as organising benefit matches in Buenos Aires also sent them a couple of kids from their youth academy who went on to become two of the biggest stars in Bolivian football during the 1970s).

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        #53
        Bad news from South America

        It's been confirmed that there were 71 deaths and 6 survivors.

        Four people on the flight list did not board the plane.

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          #54
          Bad news from South America

          A Buenos Aires-based lawyer appears to be under the impression (I know not what this impression is based on) that CONMEBOL was either contracting LAMIA on the clubs' behalf, or was insisting that clubs travelled with the airline.

          The plane that crashed is apparently the only one the company owned.

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            #55
            Bad news from South America

            Of the three surviving players, Neto is in a critical condition, Jackson Follmann has had a leg amputated and Alan Ruschel has undergone surgery but doctors say there is a possibility that he might become paraplegic.

            Fucking hell.

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              #56
              Bad news from South America

              Brazil-based Irish journalist (and aviation enthusiast) Ewan MacKenna's Twitter feed is very interesting. Among other things:

              The plane was indeed operating just outside the limit of its range to begin with, before anything went wrong.

              It seems that engine failure caused the electrical failure.

              The pilot apparently requested priority landing but it was denied due to another flight coming in right on front of it which had a fuel leak. Normal procedure would be to then divert to the nearest alternative airport, but that didn't happen (presumably because there wasn't enough fuel left).

              The model in question doesn't have a fuel dump facility.

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                #57
                Bad news from South America

                I'm still seeing conflicting reports regarding Follman's amputation. Some places reporting the head surgeon or other hospital authorities have confirmed it, others reporting they've said nothing on the subject either way yet.

                And some tossers are still making up things about big clubs/players in Europe having pledged massive donations.

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                  #58
                  Bad news from South America

                  Has Ewan said anything about the history of other fatal accidents that the BA lawyer alluded to?

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                    #59
                    Bad news from South America

                    Not that I've noticed.

                    Alejandro Domínguez (CONMEBOL president), who's in Medellín, says Atlético Nacional's suggestions are lovely, but that CONMEBOL haven't taken a decision on them yet.

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                      #60
                      Bad news from South America

                      ESPN South America's man in Medellín (well, Rionegro in fact) has just said that the hospital have indeed finally confirmed that, with his family's permission, Jackson Follman's right leg has been amputated.

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                        #61
                        Bad news from South America

                        I forget if this was posted above, but a friend of mine in Brazil tells me that the Fox Brazil team was also on that flight and all have died, including Mario Sergio who did not have many appearances with the NT but was very famous within Brazil based on his club successes.

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl9xuvOJIpU

                        He also told me that there were 6-7 players who did not travel with the team because of various injuries that would have prevented the players from contributing, including Hyoran (a young player who was recently (?) bought by Palmeiras).

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                          #62
                          Bad news from South America

                          I was going to mention Mário Sérgio. I think he played about 8 times for Brazil and narrowly missed selection for the 1982 World Cup. He was something of a cult player here and also managed several clubs.

                          I love that YouTube clip. It looks like he'd have fitted right into that 1982 team.

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                            #63
                            Bad news from South America

                            Among those who weren't selected to go was former captain Rafael Lima who lost the captaincy and his place in the team this year.

                            He was best mates with Bruno Rangel, club legend and all-time leading scorer who was killed in the disaster.

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                              #64
                              Bad news from South America

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                                #65
                                Bad news from South America

                                The other bizarre thing about this story (as posted above in the thread) is that the Medellin airport was dealing with one plane leaking fuel and another running out of gas and having an electrical problem. Is this a normal thing: airplanes failing this often? On second thought, maybe I don't want to know the answer to that question.

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                                  #66
                                  Bad news from South America

                                  I'd say it's probably a fair bet that passengers will either work out or be told that something wasn't quite right, presumably after landing. On Ewan's feed I linked to above, one woman replied to say that she had a friend who'd actually been on the plane that was given priority ahead of Chapecoense's plane, which seems to imply that her friend was aware it was her plane that had the problem.

                                  Of course it might be that they normally try and hide it from passengers unless it's impossible to do so (and I can see the argument for doing so while they're actually in the air, for sure), but I reckon that 99% of the time, if you've never been told on landing, 'By the way, the engine was about to explode,' then that means you've never been on a plane whose engine was about to explode.

                                  That's what I'll be telling myself next time I fly, anyway.

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                                    #67
                                    Bad news from South America

                                    A director of Lamia has given an interview in which he seems to accept that the cause of the crash was a lack of fuel.

                                    He said that the original plan was to fly from São Paulo direct to Medellín with a refuelling stop in Cobija in the north of Bolivia, but they were prevented from doing so by ANAC which does not allow flights by Bolivian companies between Brazil and Colombia. Why he seems to have been unaware of this regulation is unclear.

                                    So Chapecoense took a commercial flight to Santa Cruz and then boarded the Lamia flight. However by this time it was impossible to refuel at Cobija as the airport was closed at night. The only other possible refuelling stop was Bogota but for reasons as yet unknown, the pilot flew on towards Medellín, presumably aware that the amount of fuel left gave very little margin for error.

                                    I don't think I'm alone in finding this casual disregard for passenger safety utterly astonishing.

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                                      #68
                                      Bad news from South America

                                      As I said to my girlfriend last night, if the black boxes reveal that fuel did indeed run out, it's a real shame the pilot was killed in the crash because death is too good for him.

                                      In other news, the acting president of Chapecoense says the CBF president is trying to push the club to fulfill their fixture against Atlético Mineiro on the 11th December. 'Play the kids and the players who stayed behind,' is what he claims he was told. Astonishing.

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                                        #69
                                        Bad news from South America

                                        Presumably, if that happens, AM would have the basic sportsmanship to play their kids and give all the money to the families.

                                        In addition to the things about massive European clubs giving millions of Euros to the families, I saw one about Rinaldo pledging something like 3 million. I don't think he'd miss it and he may want to give it, but I suspect that his handlers would advise him to do that lest he be expected to write big checks every time something horrible happens in the world. It would eventually turn into a PR disaster as people got sour when he started to turn down some of the millions of requests that come flooding in.

                                        A more sensible thing would be to have some kind of testimonial game featuring megastars and put it on TV and give all the money, plus whatever discrete checks they want to write, to the families and the club. Although it sounds like what the club really needs now are players, not cash.

                                        I don't know how insurance or airline liability works in Brazil, but maybe the families don't really need a lot of donations to be reasonably taken care of.

                                        What they definitely need, though, is help carrying their grief. The outpouring of support and genuine emotion - I found myself getting emotional about this even though I don't follow Brazillain football at all - will help. But it will take more than that, especially after other things are in the news and the world moves on.

                                        And what the city needs is for the club to keep going, hopefully as well-managed as it has been, so free loans of players and reserving their spot in the top level would help there.

                                        Is there a bonus, for the players or the club, for winning the tournament? AM has graciously said they want Chapecoense to be named winners. Hopefully they can get whatever money they'd have got for winning too.

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                                          #70
                                          Bad news from South America

                                          Apparently LaMia didn't even have the necessary disaster insurance for something like this, and had to rely on Avianca's generosity to provide the ambulances and other emergency vehicles, So how the families are going to be compensated is anyone's guess.

                                          And reportedly, Nacional did ask for the prize money Chape would get for winning the cup to be divided between the victims' families. US$2m split 71 ways...

                                          Even with the pilot's horrendous risk:reward calculations, had that Avianca plane not happened to be leaking fuel as well he'd presumably have been given priority landing and we'd all now be looking forward to watching/ignoring/being unaware of [delete according to your situation] the match in three and a half hours' time. It's heartbreaking.

                                          Nacional are opening the stadium at the time of the match and encouraging fans to go along dressed in white for a vigil.

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                                            #71
                                            Bad news from South America

                                            Sam wrote:
                                            In other news, the acting president of Chapecoense says the CBF president is trying to push the club to fulfill their fixture against Atlético Mineiro on the 11th December. 'Play the kids and the players who stayed behind,' is what he claims he was told. Astonishing.
                                            Just when you are thinking that the only heartening aspect of this appalling tragedy has been the solidarity shown by clubs worldwide.

                                            Then enter the CBF. The president is, of course, Marco Polo Del Nero, a man who dares not leave Brazil for fear of arrest for corruption.

                                            I hope Chape and Atlético tell him to fuck off.

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                                              #72
                                              Bad news from South America

                                              There is no reason whatsoever for this match to be played. It affects neither the remaining relegation place to be decided nor the Libertadores places.

                                              Atlético will definitely finish fourth. Chape could finish between 8th and 11th.

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                                                #73
                                                Bad news from South America

                                                cantagalo wrote: Then enter the CBF. The president is, of course, Marco Polo Del Nero, a man who dares not leave Brazil for fear of arrest for corruption.
                                                He didn't travel for the match because he was afraid the FBI would arrest him if he left Brazil. Instead, he sent one of the CBF's vice-presidents, who was killed in the crash.

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                                                  #74
                                                  Bad news from South America

                                                  cantagalo wrote:
                                                  Originally posted by Sam
                                                  In other news, the acting president of Chapecoense says the CBF president is trying to push the club to fulfill their fixture against Atlético Mineiro on the 11th December. 'Play the kids and the players who stayed behind,' is what he claims he was told. Astonishing.
                                                  Just when you are thinking that the only heartening aspect of this appalling tragedy has been the solidarity shown by clubs worldwide.

                                                  Then enter the CBF.
                                                  Then enter Vice-President of Internacional, Fernando Carvalho.

                                                  He's criticised the postponement of the final league game until December 11th, saying it could damage Inter's chances of avoiding relegation. While expressing solidarity with Chapecoense, he said that Inter were also living through their own 'private tragedy'.

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                                                    #75
                                                    Bad news from South America

                                                    I saw that earlier. He sounds like a right charmer.

                                                    CONMEBOL have just tweeted a link to this statement, in which they deny that they play any part in organising transport for clubs, and also say that they don't oblige any teams to use certain providers.

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