The Refereeing Thread

[Greenlander]

Only just seen the discussion regarding the red cards at Argyle.

I'm pretty certain that Dan Scarr, our No.6 didn't get the red for the tackle but for lashing out in the melee afterwards. Not sure if he connected with anyone but he was certainly going for it.

And, as Simon G says, play restarted with an Argyle free kick.

[seand]

Just a thought on the ridiculous trend for lying a player down behind the wall while defending free kicks. I'd be sorely tempted to hammer in a low shot with a high probability of clobbering the prone player. I'm assuming this would be completely acceptable- if a player has chosen to put his body- and head- on the line that's a risk he chooses to take?

[Janik]

It would seem to fall roughly under

'PLAYING IN A DANGEROUS MANNER

Playing in a dangerous manner is any action that, while trying to play the ball, threatens injury to someone (including the player themself) and includes preventing a nearby opponent from playing the ball for fear of injury.'

even if this wasn't the intent of the rule.

But whether any ref would actually call it is very arguable. Most would surely be of two minds enough to think to themselves it was simply a shot, albeit a shot which had f*ck all chance of scoring.

However, if I was your manager and I would immediately substitute you for being an egocentric prick who has deliberately wasted a good attacking opportunity for the team.

[imp]

Janik makes an excellent point - should the player be hit by the ball, you could definitely argue that's an indirect free-kick to the attacking team because the player endangered him/herself.

My colleague at Soccer America, Paul Gardner, has been arguing for years that when goalkeepers throw themselves at the feet of attacking players then they are infringing the law on dangerous play by endangering themselves and this therefore should be an indirect free-kick to the attacking team. He thinks that enforcing the law would lead to far fewer head injuries for goalkeepers, and he makes a very strong case for it. On Sunday I had a kid who ducked low into a challenge for a header and was almost hit by the attacking player's foot - and I instinctively blew for a free-kick in his favour. In fact it should have been the other way round - but try selling that in a Sunday league when it's a rule never enforced at any level.

[treibeis]

Janik makes an excellent point - should the player be hit by the ball, you could definitely argue that's an indirect free-kick to the attacking team because the player endangered him/herself.

My colleague at Soccer America, Paul Gardner, has been arguing for years that when goalkeepers throw themselves at the feet of attacking players then they are infringing the law on dangerous play by endangering themselves and this therefore should be an indirect free-kick to the attacking team. He thinks that enforcing the law would lead to far fewer head injuries for goalkeepers, and he makes a very strong case for it. On Sunday I had a kid who ducked low into a challenge for a header and was almost hit by the attacking player's foot - and I instinctively blew for a free-kick in his favour. In fact it should have been the other way round - but try selling that in a Sunday league when it's a rule never enforced at any level.

Your mate's right, but it's only the tip of the iceberg.

Goalkeepers should be treated like any other players (except that they can handle the ball in the box, of course). But they aren't. The tackles a lot of keepers make outside the box would be yellow- or red-carded if they were made by outfield defenders, but they're rarely penalised.

My example is always Neuer against Higuain in the 2014 World Cup. Neuer should have been imprisoned for what he did.

[imp]

Good Monday morning, everyone. When all game long the crowd is yelling at you, but you feel that it's a pretty peaceful afternoon because most of the players were alright. Not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing to be so immune to non-stop, unfounded anger. Or maybe it was founded and every single decision was wrong.

treibeis I always cite Neuer vs Higuain as the ultimate example of goalkeepers getting away with anything they like in their own penalty area, a non-decision that allowed Germany to become world champions when they should have been down to 10 men and facing a penalty kick.

[Simon G]

Good to see the BBC being called out on the contradictory nature of their Tweets this morning.

This one was from yesterday - reporting on grassroots refs being abused:

https://twitter.com/BBCSport/status/1581219580348960768

Followed today by this - making light of Jurgen Klopp screaming in the face of officials:

https://twitter.com/BBCSport/status/1581697239402958848

[elguapo4]

Martin Keown on MOTD2 last night complaining that they won't let ex players do VAR, because " apparently we know nothing about football ".well Martin, most of you lot prove your lack of knowledge on the Laws of the game on a regular basis, and you're all biased, even unconsciously, based on your career.

[seand]

Another thought for the refereeing thread. With the ridiculous new rule about an uncontested drop ball for the ball hitting the ref, just wondering about people's thoughts on this scenario. A player being closed down by three opponents has no obvious pass to a team mate, so deliberately plays the ball off the nearby referee. In theory it's an uncontested drop ball for the player who played it off the ref, but is it unsporting conduct?

[Bermuda Iron]

It's an interesting theory, and not one I have encountered since the law was changed a couple of year ago. Perhaps because most players aren't that clever to think that fast? Remember the ref only stops play if the ball hits a match official and either leads to a change in posession, goes directly into the goal or starts a promising attack (great one-two off the ref there...). So if a player was that good that they decided to deliberately hit the ref/AR with the ball, the ref should wait to see where it ends up. If it goes to an opponent, stop play and restart with a drop ball to the team that last touched it. If it however goes back to the same player or a team-mate, and doesn't start a promising attack, no need to stop play. Most senior refs should be savvy enough (and hopefully fit enough!) to not be that close to the play anyway.

[imp]

Any player deliberately kicks the ball at me, they're getting a yellow at the very least...

A 27-year-old referee in Bochum ended up in hospital at the weekend after being attacked in an amateur game. Of games played under the auspices of the German FA in season 21/22, 911 were abandoned [for non-weather reasons], a new record.

[DPDPDPDP]

E8B69C83-925A-45A3-A5AA-03F9D04FCC15.jpg More shocking stuff. 8 year ban. Should be a life ban from playing, coaching or any sort of involvement with a club.

[Janik]

If I’ve understood that right, the banned individual is also a minor. That is what I take from “player in a youth match” and that he hasn’t been named.

[imp]

This week, I'm begging again for just a little more courtesy. Please.

[Janik]

Leipzig just gave away a penalty. It was completely obviously the right call, and came in the last minute of stoppage time whilst they were winning 3-1. Even if they conceded it was patently going to be the last kick of the match (they did; it was). So an obviously right penalty award against that was no way going to prevent them winning... and their players still felt the need to ‘debate‘ the decision with the ref, risking wholly unnecessary yellow cards. If that is what people see top pros doing, etc...

[Simon G]

I've got a lad on my u12 team who will spend whole games berating referees and nothing seems to be getting through to him - including dropping him from games. Speaking to his parents isn't helping. On Saturday the ref blew for half-time and called me over, "I don't appreciate being told I don't have a clue". I agreed, especially as the ref had not got a single decision wrong in my view.

I walked straight back over to my team and, for the first time, absolutely pilloried the lad in front of the team. Told him that moaning at a ref will not change their mind and, if anything, when challenging for a 50/50 will likely see the decision go against him. That if he continues to chat back to refs I will have no option but to drop him, and eventually not include him in any games.

He was quiet as a mouse in the second half, and the ref commented on it. I'm hoping I've finally managed to get through to him. We don't have a game until 5th November though, so I won't hold my breath...

[imp]

Good on you, Simon.

Janik - Joachim Löw said in an interview this week with kicker that he's amazed at the way Bundesliga players go on and on at referees, and how they throw themselves to the ground compared with that model forum of sporting behaviour... the Premier League. (This may be true for all I know - I hardly watch any Premier League any more.)

[DPDPDPDP]

Years ago when I was coaching my son’s under 9 team, during a bounce game which I was reffing at the end of a training session, one of the stroppier kids started mouthing at me for a couple of decisions. I told him to sit behind the goals for 5 minutes. He came back on, did the same thing again, so I told him to sit behind the goals again. This time I didn’t let him back on. At the end of the training session, I took him to one side and told him what he had done was wrong and if he did that in a proper match, that I would sub him off immediately. The message obviously didn’t get through and he went off in a strop. As I ws tidying the stuff away, his mum (who wasn’t at the training session) made a beeline for me and I thought “oh oh”. I explained what had happened and to my surprise she said, “thank you for doing that. He’s been acting up at home and at school and won’t listen to anyone. He loves his football and maybe this will be a good lesson for him. If he does anything like that again, don’t give him a second chance next time”. The next week before training, he apologised to me and after that his behaviour was excellent in training and in matches. He’s 24 now and has turned into a fine lad and always chats to me if I see him at my son’s games.

[Gangster Octopus]

A horrible accident.

[Simon G]

Years ago when I was coaching my son’s under 9 team, during a bounce game which I was reffing at the end of a training session, one of the stroppier kids started mouthing at me for a couple of decisions. I told him to sit behind the goals for 5 minutes. He came back on, did the same thing again, so I told him to sit behind the goals again. This time I didn’t let him back on. At the end of the training session, I took him to one side and told him what he had done was wrong and if he did that in a proper match, that I would sub him off immediately. The message obviously didn’t get through and he went off in a strop. As I ws tidying the stuff away, his mum (who wasn’t at the training session) made a beeline for me and I thought “oh oh”. I explained what had happened and to my surprise she said, “thank you for doing that. He’s been acting up at home and at school and won’t listen to anyone. He loves his football and maybe this will be a good lesson for him. If he does anything like that again, don’t give him a second chance next time”. The next week before training, he apologised to me and after that his behaviour was excellent in training and in matches. He’s 24 now and has turned into a fine lad and always chats to me if I see him at my son’s games.

The sitting out during training is something the other coach and I have discussed doing. It's definitely the next step I think.

[Jobi1]

Saw something at the Hull v Middlesbrough game tonight that I've never seen before. The ref halted the game due to an injury, with the ball in Boro's possession, and when it was resolved went to restart with an uncontested drop ball, as is now the rule. The strange part was he marched out 10 (I think) yards and sprayed a foam line which he insisted the Hull players got behind, as if it were a free kick. Is that a thing now, both in terms of the distance and the use of spray at a drop ball? Both the crowd and players seemed baffled by it.

[imp]

No, the correct distance at a drop ball is four yards. Though why IFAB came up with four, I've no idea, it seems quite arbitrary.

New blog post. I had a very peaceful weekend overall, but it's no fun if I'm not ranting about something or someone.

[Janik]

In my occasional Not Football officiating entries to this thread, I want to share the email the regional association has seen fit to send to absolutely every Umpire it has today.

Recently we’ve received multiple reports sent to us at East Officiating informing us the club umpires not wearing the correct uniform. We are writing to remind you that Umpires are required to wear the following attire when umpiring games:

- A Solid Bright Top (Yellow, Orange, Green, Pink etc.)

- Black trousers or skirt.

On a rainy day you can wear a rain coat but it must be a bright colour as per shirt requirements. (Yellow, Orange, Green, Pink, Blue etc.)

You must not wear:

- Black or White Shirts

- Plain dark coats.

- Shorts

- Jeans

- Flip Flops or Sandals

If you’ve got any further queries please contact xxxx

[my bold]

Most, if not all clubs struggle to find enough Umpires, and this is a serious issue. Rather than helping the clubs get more people involved in offciating, something high-handed like this comes down. Are they really worried about people Umpiring in shorts, or the wrong colour of skirt or trousers?? FFS.

[1974ddr]

It doesn't appear to specify that umpires can't wear the same colour as one of the teams involved though, as long as it's a suitably bright colour? Or are umpires required to carry a change kit just in case? It was much easier in my day, the umpire was generally the myopic sixty year old with a whistle, usually wearing tracksuit bottoms and a thick overcoat. Whose decisions, I might add, were accepted without question no matter how clearly incorrect.

Although there was this one time in Hathersage...

[Janik]

Umpires needing to wear a contrasting colour to the two teams is one of the rules of the sport. What that colour can and can't be is not specified in the rules.
I'm not sure where the regional Umpiring co-ordinator has pulled the ban on white and black shirts and black coats from. Esepcially given the England Hockey official kit supplier of Match Officials kit offers white match shirts and black rainproof jackets for sale. https://teamwear.specialistsports.co...ckey-officials