The Refereeing Thread

[DPDPDPDP]

Who did you play for?

A team called Forties who played in the Commercial League, as it was back then. Forties folded around 1999. I left Bermuda in 2001. At that time Robin Hood, BAA Wanderers, Island Rangers etc were all in the Commercial League. I think the set up has changed since my day

[Bermuda Iron]

The Commercial League is still running, now called the Corona League. The main BFA set-up has 2 divisions (Prem and First), and teams like Robin Hood, Onions and BAA have a team in both th BFA and the Corona League (well, BAA did, but their 'first' BFA team folded before this season started). I moved here in 2011 and football has probably not changed much.

[Simon G]

Question for the referees on here, and generally just those interested in the rules.

In Cheltenham's game against Crewe today a Crewe defender was sent off for a second yellow after the ref had played an advantage. The local radio commentators claim the ref isn't able to send the player off if he's played an advantage. Are they right?

I genuinely have no idea.

[elguapo4]

No,the referee has the authority to issue a yellow card at any time, sounds to me like a great piece of officiating.

[Janik]

The local radio is talking b*llocks. There is no difference in the rules between when a first and second yellow can be issued. A yellow card is a yellow card, the rules do no discriminate between them.

It's a rare event simply because it's a big gamble for the ref. Imagine the scenario: the ref sees a bad foul and makes a mental note of the player and that it's their second yellow card offence, thinking "I'll send her off for that at the next break in play, but I don't want to stop the attack going on to do so". The move breaks down but the ball stays in play and there is no foul. It's shipped up to the other end for an attack that culminates in the player the ref is planning to send off firing the ball home. The score has to stand, even though it's been scored by a player who was due to be sent off and now will be for something that happened prior to the goal! That's not a great look for the ref [who probably avoids the issue by conveniently forgetting their intention to show the second yellow...].

[Simon G]

I thought there was nothing wrong with it, but when I saw on the Cheltenham message board about what the radio commentators were saying it did make me question myself.

[imp]

Question for the referees on here, and generally just those interested in the rules.

In Cheltenham's game against Crewe today a Crewe defender was sent off for a second yellow after the ref had played an advantage. The local radio commentators claim the ref isn't able to send the player off if he's played an advantage. Are they right?

I genuinely have no idea.

Had a coach barging into my dressing room two or three weeks back to complain exactly about this. He was angry. I stayed calm. He left. He came back. He was angry. I stayed calm. He left. And I thought, "Now fuck off for good, you fucking cunt."

[Bermuda Iron]

No,the referee has the authority to issue a yellow card at any time, sounds to me like a great piece of officiating.

This. In fact, I had such an instance this weekend (although it was a first yellow, and not a second). Clear reckless challenge in the middle of the field, but also a clear advantage to the attacking side (who eventually scored from this advantage). I shouted something along the lines of "I'm coming back for you with a yellow number 7", mainly to let him know, and also to help me remember!

[imp]

Some more questions for you:

1. The referee notices that, while the ball is in the possession of Team B in midfield, their goalkeeper is carving out an illegal marking in hs own penalty area. Decision? (Including re-start and place of re-start.)

2. While the ball is in play a dog runs in to Team A's penalty area and wants to play with the goalkeeper. A player on Team B notices that the goalkeeper's distracted - from the centre circle he shoots the ball into Team A's goal. What next?

3. During the game a fog falls and visibility worsens by the minute. When must the referee stop the game, and when must he/she call it off?

4. Penalty for Team A. The penalty-taker runs up and elaborately pirouettes before scoring a goal with his back-heel past the astonished goalkeeper. Decision?

5. Penalty for Team A. The penalty-taker runs up and scores, then runs off to the corner flag to celebrate, where one of his team-mates is chatting to a spectator. You, the referee, only notice the latter right after the goal's been scored. Decision?

6. Penalty for Team A. Player Number 11 indicates that he's the taker, but after the whistle for the kick, player number 9 runs up and scores instead. Decision?

[Snake Plissken]

Some more questions for you:
3. During the game a fog falls and visibility worsens by the minute. When must the referee stop the game, and when must he/she call it off?

Ooh, interested in the correct answer to this considering that I was at a game (Derby vs Burnley, FA Cup 1992) where precisely this happened. I would have thought it was down to the referees judgement as to when visibility is impacting the safety of the players in seeing the ball or the officials to judge offside / see play.

6. Goal, isn't it? The player placing the ball on the spot is the taker is a convention, not a rule.

[imp]

6. Goal, isn't it? The player placing the ball on the spot is the taker is a convention, not a rule.

Try again.

[hobbes]

The local radio is talking b*llocks. There is no difference in the rules between when a first and second yellow can be issued. A yellow card is a yellow card, the rules do no discriminate between them.

It's a rare event simply because it's a big gamble for the ref. Imagine the scenario: the ref sees a bad foul and makes a mental note of the player and that it's their second yellow card offence, thinking "I'll send her off for that at the next break in play, but I don't want to stop the attack going on to do so". The move breaks down but the ball stays in play and there is no foul. It's shipped up to the other end for an attack that culminates in the player the ref is planning to send off firing the ball home. The score has to stand, even though it's been scored by a player who was due to be sent off and now will be for something that happened prior to the goal! That's not a great look for the ref [who probably avoids the issue by conveniently forgetting their intention to show the second yellow...].

Would the referee not blow the whistle to stop play as soon as the advantage disappears?

[ad hoc]

3. I have this half remembered fact that fog stops play if you can't see both (side) touchlines from the middle. This may never have been true, or may have once been true but no longer.

2. I presume is a goal. If the goalkeeper's distracted it's his/her fault

[Snake Plissken]

Would the referee not blow the whistle to stop play as soon as the advantage disappears?

The advantage wouldn't necessarily end in a goal, though, would it? Could be a good save from the keeper, and the ball stays in play.

[seand]

1. Play on, book the GK at the next stop in play
2. Ref should stop the game when he notices the keeper being distracted, I reckon. So did the ref spot the problematic dog before or after the 'goal'?
3. There's probably a rule in there somewhere.... buggered if I know. Safety of the players is primary concern, etc.
4. Penalty pirouette sounds ok to me. I'd like to book the taker for being a twat, but goal stands.
5. Goal stands. The chatting teammatemay be in an offside position but is surely not interfering with play
6. I believe the placer has to be the taker. Yellow for 9, retake the pen

[Snake Plissken]

Try again.

M'colleague - a manager at a non-league level says "Indirect free kick and yellow for unsportsmanlike behaviour".

Personally, I'm wondering what makes a penalty kick different from a goal kick, centre spot kick-off or direct free kick immediately outside the box.

[Simon G]

Regarding 3. I'm sure I've read it's if the ref can't see the goals from the centre-spot.

I've been at two games called off just after half-time for fog and for both it seemed to be ok until we couldn't see the halfway line (Morecambe in the FA Cup 1st Round 08/09, and Woking in the LDV Vans Trophy in 05/06 for those interested - in the days I used to go to away games)

[Snake Plissken]

On 3. I'm not sure that is the criteria when on a good day, the ref can't see the blatantly obvious fouls in front of his face. Eh? Eh? Amirite? Back to you Alan / Robbie / Wrighty / Clem.

Consensus in the office is that 4 is a perfectly good goal because the player hasn't stopped their run-up. Come to think of it - didn't someone do this last year in a U21 international tournament or something?

As for 5, seems a good goal to me. Can't work out where the harm is as they are not interfering with play, distracting the goalkeeper or offside.

[hobbes]

The advantage wouldn't necessarily end in a goal, though, would it? Could be a good save from the keeper, and the ball stays in play.

Yes, but the advantage duration is up to the referee. The game doesn't have to stop for he/she to stop the game. They've got the whistle. Remember a few years ago when the new thing for the season was that the ref would allow advantage, but if none accrued they'd bring play back for a free kick? That.

Law 12 says:-

Advantage should not be applied in situations involving serious foul play, violent conduct or a second cautionable offence unless there is a clear opportunity to score a goal. The referee must send off the player when the ball is next out of play but if the player plays the ball or challenges/interferes with an opponent, the referee will stop play, send off the player and restart with an indirect free kick, unless the player committed a more serious offence.

[ingoldale]

Some more questions for you:

1. The referee notices that, while the ball is in the possession of Team B in midfield, their goalkeeper is carving out an illegal marking in hs own penalty area. Decision? (Including re-start and place of re-start.)

A; Indirect free-kick for unsportsman like conduct from the place where the incident happened i.e the penalty area from where the marking is after repair.

2. While the ball is in play a dog runs in to Team A's penalty area and wants to play with the goalkeeper. A player on Team B notices that the goalkeeper's distracted - from the centre circle he shoots the ball into Team A's goal. What next?

A; You could stop play but it would be a goal if you haven't noticed it beforehand.

3. During the game a fog falls and visibility worsens by the minute. When must the referee stop the game, and when must he/she call it off?

A: Call it off when neither goal is visible from halfway line or it impacts player safety, whichever comes first

4. Penalty for Team A. The penalty-taker runs up and elaborately pirouettes before scoring a goal with his back-heel past the astonished goalkeeper. Decision?

A; No goal, run up must be a fluid movement. Order a re-take.

5. Penalty for Team A. The penalty-taker runs up and scores, then runs off to the corner flag to celebrate, where one of his team-mates is chatting to a spectator. You, the referee, only notice the latter right after the goal's been scored. Decision?

A: Goal he is outside the box, more than 10 yards away. Book for leaving the field of play without ref's permission

6. Penalty for Team A. Player Number 11 indicates that he's the taker, but after the whistle for the kick, player number 9 runs up and scores instead. Decision?

A: No goal. Indirect fee kick for unsportsman like conduct.

I used to be a referee, the rules have changed a lot since then but that would be my take.

[Janik]

Some more questions for you:

1. The referee notices that, while the ball is in the possession of Team B in midfield, their goalkeeper is carving out an illegal marking in hs own penalty area. Decision? (Including re-start and place of re-start.)

2. While the ball is in play a dog runs in to Team A's penalty area and wants to play with the goalkeeper. A player on Team B notices that the goalkeeper's distracted - from the centre circle he shoots the ball into Team A's goal. What next?

3. During the game a fog falls and visibility worsens by the minute. When must the referee stop the game, and when must he/she call it off?

4. Penalty for Team A. The penalty-taker runs up and elaborately pirouettes before scoring a goal with his back-heel past the astonished goalkeeper. Decision?

5. Penalty for Team A. The penalty-taker runs up and scores, then runs off to the corner flag to celebrate, where one of his team-mates is chatting to a spectator. You, the referee, only notice the latter right after the goal's been scored. Decision?

6. Penalty for Team A. Player Number 11 indicates that he's the taker, but after the whistle for the kick, player number 9 runs up and scores instead. Decision?

1. Stop the game and book the goalkeeper for being a prat unsporting conduct. Restart with a drop ball in the midfield, one of the new uncontested ones in favour of Team B.

2. Ugh, what a mess. Well, you should have stopped the game when the dog ran onto the pitch, but it seems you didn't. So... give the goal to Team B. The play was live, the goalkeeper of Team A should have been concentrating. Then stop time and ensure the dog is removed from the playing area before restarting with Team A taking centre.

3. Stop the game as soon as either of the goals is no longer visible from the centre spot. No idea on when the game must be called off, so at a random guess if conditions don't improve within 30 minutes then it's an abandonment.

4. Goal. As long as the taker didn't come to a dead stop during his run up he is allowed to approach the ball, and kick the ball, in any way he choses.

5. Goal. Players are allowed to chat to supporters if they so desire. As he was beside the corner flag he would have been in an offside position but not committing an offside offence as he wasn't interfering with play.

6. Disallow the goal, book no.9 for unsporting conduct and restart the game with a free-kick to the defence.

[ingoldale]

1. Stop the game and book the goalkeeper for being a prat unsporting conduct. Restart with a drop ball in the midfield, one of the new uncontested ones in favour of Team B.

2. Ugh, what a mess. Well, you should have stopped the game when the dog ran onto the pitch, but it seems you didn't. So... give the goal to Team B. The play was live, the goalkeeper of Team A should have been concentrating. Then stop time and ensure the dog is removed from the playing area before restarting with Team A taking centre.

3. Stop the game as soon as either of the goals is no longer visible from the centre spot. No idea on when the game must be called off, so at a random guess if conditions don't improve within 30 minutes then it's an abandonment.

4. Goal. As long as the taker didn't come to a dead stop during his run up he is allowed to approach the ball, and kick the ball, in any way he choses.

5. Goal. Players are allowed to chat to supporters if they so desire. As he was beside the corner flag he would have been in an offside position but not committing an offside offence as he wasn't interfering with play.

6. Disallow the goal, book no.9 for unsporting conduct and restart the game with a free-kick to the defence.

Went for yellow because if you have to stop play for a reason like that it warrants a booking, I think. And, therefore, an indirect free because you have stopped play as a result of the offence which was not within direct play so to speak.

[Bermuda Iron]

For Questions 5 and 6, consider Law 14 (the Penalty Kick), which states:

The player taking the penalty kick must be clearly identified.

The players other than the kicker and the goalkeeper must be:

• at least 10 yds from the penalty mark
• behind the penalty mark
• inside the field of play
• outside the penalty area

For Question 4, the player taking the penalty kick must kick the ball forward; backheeling is permitted provided the ball moves forward. Players are allowed to 'feint' in the run-up, but not once the run-up is completed.

Also bear in mind a referee can change his/her decision provided play has not been restarted.

[Janik]

The player taking the penalty kick must be clearly identified.

This doesn't mean that the player who put the ball down on the spot must take the kick though, does it? The team taking the kick can change their mind and nominate a different taker, but they must inform of the ref of this. So the example in the question is an infringement not because No.11 put the ball down (or indeed No.9 did, which is possibly the phrasing of the question) but because No.11 indicated they were going to take it but then it was no.9 who did so instead.
I'm not implying you are suggesting putting down the ball equalled being the nominated taker by the way, just working through the point.

[Bermuda Iron]

Nope, the law makes it clear the player actually taking the kick must be identified, usually in the form of the referee and the keeper being aware of who is going to actually kick it. Anyone can 'spot the ball', that is irrelevant. The Law then states that if a team-mate of the identified kicker takes the kick, he is cautioned, and play restarts with an IDFK to the defending team.