Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

[jeanmid]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

But did O'Neil know Fashanu and Hitzlsperger were gay at the time?

[G-Man]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

Calvert wrote: I thought S. Africa had sporting pariah status since the late '60's and if the ANC advised against it you just didn't go?

As Janik points out, the sporting boycott targeted rugby and cricket and Olympic Games participation, because that hurt white society. While some whites would come and see visiting football teams, the touring players would go into townships and hold clinics etc. That was quite popular before the total isolation of South Africa became a coordinated policy.

That is not to say that these football tours were not without criticism. It was a bit like the concert tours by black musicians like Percy Sledge or George Benson. Some political activists happily went to these concerts, some boycotted them. But an "official" position was still developing. As we know, the total boycott faction eventually won.

One thing to remember is that until the late '70s/early '80s, the ANC was in a bit of a doldrum. Inside SA, the Black Consciousness movement was the more forceful voice of protest, led by Steve Biko. The game-changing 1976 protests can be attributed to BC rather than ANC, which gave little internal leadership at the time.

But as an external presence, the ANC's military wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe, presented the militant youth with an option. That strengthened the ANC, and the murder of Biko in 1977 fatally wounded the Black Consciousness movement.

So when the next round of riots erupted in 1980, the ANC was stronger. International outrage over 1976 had given the ANC an international voice, and internally the ANC became the hook on which to hang one's struggle hat.

The founding in 1983 of the United Democratic Front -- a broad alliance of organisations (political, social, religious, cultural) that supported the ANC -- ignited the organised internal opposition which the regime couldn't break, helped by articulate leadership.

Coming back to the boycotts, now there was something of a unified opposition internally and externally, the various strategies could be coherently formulated and pursued. The ANC/UDF adopted the total boycott strategy from the Black Consciousness movement -- and now the call for isolation was absolute and comprehensive, being made by the legitimate opposition inside SA and by the ANC internationally.

There were no longer grey areas of ambiguity such as those that applied when football teams and soul singers came to SA.

[Calvert]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

Fascinating stuff.
Thanks for that.

[wittoner]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

Yes,I remember people like Malcolm Allison & Jimmy Hill claiming they were helping black people by going to South Africa in the 70s and there was probably some substance in that.Obviously though,the main reason they went was the money.

[Geoffrey de Ste. Croix]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

I'm sure I read somewhere that George Eastham, the Newcastle and Arsenal inside forward, who successfully challenged much of the retain and transfer system, emigrated to South Africa and worked exclusively in Black townships.

[hobbes]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

Wiki concurs...

Retirement
After leaving the Stoke job, he quit professional football completely, and emigrated to South Africa in 1978.[1] He set up his own sportswear business as well as being a football coach for local black children (being a noted opponent of Apartheid).[1] He is also chairman of the South African Arsenal Supporters' Club.

[Borracho]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

Meanwhile, the FAI have just handed O'Neill and Keane a handsome new contract, even though the tournament has not even happened yet.

They also did this with Trapattoni just before Euro 2012. Regardless of how Ireland fare in the next fortnight it's still an idiotic plunge to take.

[Borracho]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

Just remembered the IRFU did the same thing with Eddie O'Sullivan in 2007, a matter of days before Ireland embarked on the most disastrous Rugby World Cup campaign in their history.

[Jobi1]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

jeanmid wrote: But did O'Neil know Fashanu and Hitzlsperger were gay at the time?

He did mention Fashanu in his apologies, which as Second Captains pointed out in their latest podcast came across a bit "I can't be racist/homophobic/etc. because some of my best friends are black/gay/etc." It's an interesting discussion whether for example the England manager would be allowed off the hook so lightly if he said something similar? Also, is it ok to excuse someone saying something like this because of the age he is with the old "well it was just normal to say something like that in his day, he doesn't know any better" line? Surely by now we've reached a time where seemingly intelligent people of all ages should know better.

Speaking as one of those gay types, I personally despise the "Q" word, and while understanding the reasoning find it utterly cringe-worthy when it's used in re-appropriated fashion by gay people, never mind when it's used in its original pejorative form by dinosauric old football managers. Very disappointing.

[jwdd27]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

I would have expected O'Neill to know better, especially as he is regarded as being somewhat intelligent (and in fact was derided and distrusted by Clough for his book-learning). I would expect this sort of thing from Joe Kinnear.

Kevin Keegan was another who went to South Africa in the 1980s - Scunthorpe Borough Council boycotted his appearance at the opening of the then new ground due to his apartheid links, although he was vehement that he'd been coaching township kids, and their attitude was perhaps also due to the new ground being a couple of hundred yards outside the borough, which the club helpfully pointed out by naming it Glanford Park.

[G-Man]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

Yeah, Keegan and Mick Channon played for Cape Town City for a bit in 1978.

[delicatemoth]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

Knowlesy wrote: Never realised Martin had this kind of thing in him to be honest. Sad.

He's the only famous person I've ever written to. Maybe I should write again to give him a good chiding.

"Speaking as one of those gay types, I personally despise the "Q" word, and while understanding the reasoning find it utterly cringe-worthy when it's used in re-appropriated fashion by gay people"

I recently read an article suggesting that many young people prefer to self-identify in the way you dislike because for them 'gay' is THE pejorative word, the one most frequently snarled at them, the one which has negative connotations they can't overlook. So possibly a generational thing.

[RobM]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

Calvert wrote: Fascinating stuff.
Thanks for that.

And from me G-Man, cheers.

[RobM]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

Jobi le Taxi wrote:

But did O'Neil know Fashanu and Hitzlsperger were gay at the time?

He did mention Fashanu in his apologies, which as Second Captains pointed out in their latest podcast came across a bit "I can't be racist/homophobic/etc. because some of my best friends are black/gay/etc." It's an interesting discussion whether for example the England manager would be allowed off the hook so lightly if he said something similar? Also, is it ok to excuse someone saying something like this because of the age he is with the old "well it was just normal to say something like that in his day, he doesn't know any better" line? Surely by now we've reached a time where seemingly intelligent people of all ages should know better.

Speaking as one of those gay types, I personally despise the "Q" word, and while understanding the reasoning find it utterly cringe-worthy when it's used in re-appropriated fashion by gay people, never mind when it's used in its original pejorative form by dinosauric old football managers. Very disappointing.

The 'he doesn't know any better' line is getting tired now, I'm nearly 50 and I think I'm probably on the right side in terms of youth in terms of knowing what's right and wrong when the line was drawn.

As you say Jobi, people have had plenty time now to get their acts together.

[Borracho]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

It now seems that O'Neill's much-trumpeted new contract deal doesn't exist yet, i.e. he hasn't signed it.

It's almost as if the FAI and O'Neill wanted to get another story off the front pages fast.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

This is just another one of o'neill's awkward 'humour moments' where he makes an uncomfortable joke, and then tells everyone that he's only joking, because everyone is bemused because he has either said something inappropriate or generally just off centre.

I'm just surprised that it's this subject that caught him up, but not surprised that when it did, he turned the comic conceit of him and Roy as a married couple into this fiasco.

Martin o Neill is a very weird man. I can see how he got himself into this mess. That apology was not good enough

[Lang Spoon]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

Maybe because he seems quiet, reflective and his glasses make him look rather studious, but Martin seems to get a pass on his weirder statements (and patchy record-especially his money spunking on shite at Villa) with the Uk as well as Irish media. If he were a swarthy Latin or puce coloured volatile Scot maybe things would be different.

He might be the biggest cunt in the world I've no idea, but he seems nice compared to the freaks and sociopaths in his field. Can't imagine he has too many enemies among the red top hacks.

[Duncan Gardner]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

An oft-quoted cliche is how well-read and well-informed he is. It's based largely on starting (but not finishing) a law degree at BelAir University. He was playing Irish League for Distillery before signing for Forest.

He was a good pundit, but his stock now must be on a par with say Ron Atkinson after the Desailly incident.

[Patrick Thistle]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

Nah. Unfortunately you can still make clunky jokes about sexuality. You can't get away with calling a footballer the N word.

[Borracho]

Martin O'Neill's Enlightened Views

O'Neill was legendary in Scotland for giving an interview and making the journalist come away feeling as if he or she had secured the scoop of a lifetime. Of course, when the hack played the tape back a day or two later, there was hardly anything of interest there at all.