Coming back off the midwinter break

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Last week, Mydtjylland's win over Man United was partly attributed to their freshness, having just come back off theirs.

Last night, Dynamo Kiev's abysmal showing against Man City was partly attributed to their rustiness, having just come back off theirs.

Commentators can't have it both ways. Who is right?

[dalliance]

Coming back off the midwinter break

I'm not sure about the first statement at all. I think commentators were saying that the Danes won despite their rustiness.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Coming back off the midwinter break

The Daily Mirror, in previewing last week's game, in the same article pointed out that the Danes would be both "fresh" and "lacking match fitness" for precisely the same reason.

[ad hoc]

Coming back off the midwinter break

Both are self-evidently true. They are likely to have fewer injuries and they are likely to be less tired for not having played competitively for a while. But at the same time they are also likely to be lacking in that edge that playing competitively gives you.

I'd say the latter fact would be too great a problem to make up for any advantage conferred by the former fact.

(Or, to put it another way, Man City ought to have won comfortably in Ukraine, and Man Utd ought to have won comfortably in Denmark)

[dalliance]

Coming back off the midwinter break

It's similar in a way to Italian teams at the beginning of the season. There has been a long history of them sometimes blowing it against much weaker teams in the first round of European competition, or the CL qualifiers these days, because their season starts later and so does their pre-season training by extension.

So they'll typically be fresher having played fewer games than their opponents, but that freshness is more than negated by the loss of competitive edge.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Coming back off the midwinter break

Rogin the Armchair Fan wrote: Last week, Mydtjylland's win over Man United was partly attributed to their freshness, having just come back off theirs.

Last night, Dynamo Kiev's abysmal showing against Man City was partly attributed to their rustiness, having just come back off theirs.

Commentators can't have it both ways. Who is right?

you're missing one important component, the other team.

Dynamo kiev looked comparatively rusty against a full strength and rested man city. Midtylland looked comparatively well organized and drilled against a much weakened man utd team picking whatever players were fit.

[dalliance]

Coming back off the midwinter break

FFS.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Coming back off the midwinter break

But that could apply to any match, at any stage of the season. If Man United had been at full strength and won, would people instead have focussed on the danes' comparative lack of match fitness?

I agree with dalliance and ad hoc, actually, that long breaks from competitive football never seem to benefit sides. I think that's why they try at least to make these pre-season friendly tournaments a bit edgier nowadays by having a trophy to play for.

So Jurgen Klopp's demands for the Premier League to have one, might give the players a break but which teams (or types of teams, styles) would fail to hit the ground running again afterwards?

[Borracho]

Coming back off the midwinter break

The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: you're missing one important component, the other team.

Dynamo kiev looked comparatively rusty against a full strength and rested man city. Midtylland looked comparatively well organized and drilled against a much weakened man utd team picking whatever players were fit.

Dynamo Kiev would surely beat Midtjylland eight or nine times out of ten.

They may have been piss-poor last night but let's not forget that they thrashed Everton in March. Midtjylland also sold their best player to Celtic in January.

[ad hoc]

Coming back off the midwinter break

Sheffield Wednesday's best start to the season in my lifetime (4 straight wins, top of the top flight, etc) came the season we played in the Intertoto, meaning, essentially, that the preseason was competitive.

Obviously we dropped off the pace fairly quickly after that, but I'm firmly convinced that the good start was largely down to the competitive preseason

[dalliance]

Coming back off the midwinter break

I think it depends how long the winter break was. If it was 2 weeks, maybe 3 weeks then that would probably be beneficial. But 10 or 11 weeks like Denmark and the Ukraine is not something they would choose voluntarily - it's forced on them.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Coming back off the midwinter break

Green Calx wrote:

you're missing one important component, the other team.

Dynamo kiev looked comparatively rusty against a full strength and rested man city. Midtylland looked comparatively well organized and drilled against a much weakened man utd team picking whatever players were fit.

Dynamo Kiev would surely beat Midtjylland eight or nine times out of ten.

They may have been piss-poor last night but let's not forget that they thrashed Everton in March. Midtjylland also sold their best player to Celtic in January.

and the man city team that played kiev would beat the man utd team that played midtjylland eight or nine times out of ten. I mentioned that everton game earlier btw.

[longeared]

Coming back off the midwinter break

ad hoc - they were different seasons. The Intertoto was 1995, the rip roaring start a year later. Pleat actually blamed the Intertoto adventure for disrupting training and the consequent feeble season.

[ad hoc]

Coming back off the midwinter break

longeared wrote: ad hoc - they were different seasons. The Intertoto was 1995, the rip roaring start a year later. Pleat actually blamed the Intertoto adventure for disrupting training and the consequent feeble season.

You're kidding. In my mind the two things were the same year. OK, that makes that piece of anecdotal evidence significantly less valuable

[Janik]

Coming back off the midwinter break

ad hoc wrote: Both are self-evidently true. They are likely to have fewer injuries and they are likely to be less tired for not having played competitively for a while. But at the same time they are also likely to be lacking in that edge that playing competitively gives you.

This.

See also teams with no specific aims at the end of the season either being disinterested and going through the motions or liberated and playing really positively. Both are entirely possible reactions to the stimulus, despite being diametrically opposed in terms of performance. Sometimes both ways are equally true.

I've sworn off commenting on Manchester United for lent (is it lent yet?).

[matt j]

Coming back off the midwinter break

I vaguely remember back in the Dynamo Kiev Shevchenko glory years that they looked absolutely great before Christmas in the CL, then when the competition resumed every single player was sucking wind at about the 60 minute mark of the first knockout match.

That style of play they had definitely didn't suit a break in conditioning training.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Coming back off the midwinter break

dalliance wrote: I think it depends how long the winter break was. If it was 2 weeks, maybe 3 weeks then that would probably be beneficial. But 10 or 11 weeks like Denmark and the Ukraine is not something they would choose voluntarily - it's forced on them.

Those clubs aren't taking a winter break though. That's their off season isn't it?

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Coming back off the midwinter break

Isn't the major reason that there's no winter break in england, because historically the bad weather is so unpredictable, that you could find yourself resting in a lovely january, only for there to be a foot of snow in february.

[dalliance]

Coming back off the midwinter break

It is but it's the same net effect.

[dalliance]

Coming back off the midwinter break

The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: Isn't the major reason that there's no winter break in england, because historically the bad weather is so unpredictable, that you could find yourself resting in a lovely january, only for there to be a foot of snow in february.

A substantial part of it is commercial. Back in the day the Christmas period was one in which pretty much everyone was on holiday, the one time of the year, so crowds would be bumper for games over the festive period.

[ad hoc]

Coming back off the midwinter break

The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote:

I think it depends how long the winter break was. If it was 2 weeks, maybe 3 weeks then that would probably be beneficial. But 10 or 11 weeks like Denmark and the Ukraine is not something they would choose voluntarily - it's forced on them.

Those clubs aren't taking a winter break though. That's their off season isn't it?

No it's the winter break. At least it is in Ukraine, as in Romania. The winter is just long so we have 2 months off between mid December and mid February

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Coming back off the midwinter break

It's a winter break in Denmark, too. They were halfway through 2015-16 when they packed up in December.

[Janik]

Coming back off the midwinter break

Denmark is the only Scandinavian country not to play a summer season.