Originally posted by ursus arctos
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Originally posted by caja-dglh View PostIt will certainly be interesting to see how this all plays out. It is a very tricky spot that the Premier League finds themselves in.
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Apologies, I don't know why I lumped in Pirlo with the others.
It's a very tricky situation for the Premier League, not least because if they do decide to strip City of their titles it then deals a significant blow to the league's credibility. I've come across people who've said they don't bother watching Italian football anymore because of scandals like Calciopoli. What does it say about the Premier League - a league where that level of chicanery wasn't supposed to happen - if it turns out that it's as susceptible to corruption and financial doping as any other major league? All of a sudden it loses some of its appeal. Maybe not enough to fatally undermine the product but enough to remove the aura of invincibility that has cloaked the league in recent seasons. It'd be nice to think so.
To put it another way, this isn't going to look good to some sponsors or investors
Premier League Title Winners
2010/11 - Manchester United
2011/12 - Manchester City*
2012/13 - Manchester United
2013/14 - Manchester City*
2014/15 - Chelsea
2015/16 - Leicester City
2016/17 - Chelsea
2017/18 - Manchester City*
2018/19 - Manchester City*
2019/20 - Liverpool
2020/21 - Manchester City*
2021/22 - Manchester City*Last edited by Johnny Velvet; 07-02-2023, 18:36.
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It will certainly be interesting to see how this all plays out. It is a very tricky spot that the Premier League finds themselves in.
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Thanks ursus arctos, I thought it was Camoranesi but I was not sure of the spelling.
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Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View PostIf they're under contract, couldn't they stay or demand that their contracts were paid up?
But I'd also assume nobody will sign for them while the threat of relegation is in the air (and they'd be daft to extend contracts).
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The seven were Alessandro Del Piero, Gianluigi Buffon, Giorgio Chiellini, Pavel Nedvěd, David Trezeguet, Marcelo Zalayeta and Mauro Camoranesi.
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IIRC it was a 'magnificent seven' who stayed though I'm struggling to remember the other two and it was Buffon with the 'I've never won Serie B' quote.
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Buffon, Del Piero, Trezeguet and Nedved all stuck around. Pirlo was yet to join the club. I recall one of either Del Piero or Buffon rationalising the decision to stay on because they'd never won Serie B before, and considered it a novel challenge. I cannot imagine for a milisecond any of the current City squad feeling the same way about a gruelling Championship season.
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If they're under contract, couldn't they stay or demand that their contracts were paid up?
But I'd also assume nobody will sign for them while the threat of relegation is in the air (and they'd be daft to extend contracts).
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This is good on how things might play out if a) City were found guilty b) there was sufficient will to punish them harshly and c) their legal team wasn't able to spare them.
Something I find interesting about the comparison with Juventus' relegation and the potential relegation of City. When Juventus were consigned to the Serie B there was an exodus but I remember several of their key players decided to stay. Buffon and Pirlo, if I remember rightly. When asked why they both came out with something along the lines of, "This is a great club that's been fucked over by the authorities. We're staying to fight and bring the club back where it belongs."
Total bullshit of course but that kind of exceptionalism only comes with being part of a club that's constructed a narrative for itself and has sustained intergenerational success to back up its claims. It's easier to foster a sense of belonging, of a "cause," if you're a club like Juventus or Barcelona. The Abu Dhabi incarnation of Manchester City aren't that kind of club. They're a nakedly mercenarial outfit and always will be because of the very nature of their success. Everyone who is at City is there because they're being paid more money than they'd get anywhere else and because of the other talented players and coaches who are already in situ. Nobody is at City because they deeply love the club and want to be part of its regeneration. Relegation for them would mean all of their best talent leaving for good, which would in turn mean several years in the wilderness at a minimum.
All pie in the sky of course. But it does expose what kind of operation they are.
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Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View PostThey should, in fact, nullify all titles since Chelsea and City started financial doping, as Chelsea and City will have taken points from some clubs, or injured other clubs' players in dodgy tackles, and, of course, forced clubs to spend more than they could afford, among other things. There is no way of knowing how any league results would have played out in that time, so therefore everybody's titles should be revoked.
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Originally posted by Janik View Post
Juventus have been known to still count the unawarded title towards their total. Just like Lance Armstrong has been known to pretend his disqualifications didn't happen.
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Saved me a post there
It was also determined that Juventus' adventures in influencing results had had more impact in that season than others
Juve's claiming of the vacated tiitpes included this unobtrusive display in their new ground at a time before they had 30 recognised scudetti
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Actually, having re-familiarised myself with it, Inter finished third in the season that was subsequently awarded to them. Milan were second, but had 30 points deducted for their involvement in the same stuff. Which only dropped them to third in the adjusted table.
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Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View PostThey should, in fact, nullify all titles since Chelsea and City started financial doping, as Chelsea and City will have taken points from some clubs, or injured other clubs' players in dodgy tackles, and, of course, forced clubs to spend more than they could afford, among other things. There is no way of knowing how any league results would have played out in that time, so therefore everybody's titles should be revoked.
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I already consider Liverpool to be the moral victors of 2014, 2019 and 2022 anyway, so it doesn't matter to me what they do if they take 'em away from Sportswash.
But then, I also consider us the moral victors in 1989 and 2009 as well, and also the game against Wolves last weekend probably. I didn't see it.
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Originally posted by ad hoc View PostThere's no way other clubs should be awarded those titles. Just take them away from Manchester City, and list the titles as "not awarded" as was done with Juventus in Serie A.
Juventus have been known to still count the unawarded title towards their total. Just like Lance Armstrong has been known to pretend his disqualifications didn't happen.
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They should, in fact, nullify all titles since Chelsea and City started financial doping, as Chelsea and City will have taken points from some clubs, or injured other clubs' players in dodgy tackles, and, of course, forced clubs to spend more than they could afford, among other things. There is no way of knowing how any league results would have played out in that time, so therefore everybody's titles should be revoked.
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Originally posted by ad hoc View PostThere's no way other clubs should be awarded those titles. Just take them away from Manchester City, and list the titles as "not awarded" as was done with Juventus in Serie A.
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You can't award titles in retrospect because, among other things, some clubs might have settled for 3rd or 4th place after they realized they couldn't catch the leaders. I know that might be unfair on, say, Liverpool if they finished on 100 points and 3rd place finished on 80, but on principle it opens too many protests.
And imagine the fuss if Liverpool get awarded more titles than Man U, or vice versa.
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Originally posted by G-Man View Post
I don't think I defended the creation of the Premier League in any way. The lucky timing I referred to was the ability of the BRCs to capitalise on the windfalls of their scheme, something which Everton and, to a lesser extent, Spurs failed to do.Last edited by Tony C; 07-02-2023, 14:58.
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Originally posted by Tony C View Post
Well, it was available as long as you were in the PL. The very formation of the PL was about creating an independent television rights deal for the top flight and detaching themselves from the burden of sharing rights amongst the rest of the Football League. To couch it in terms of “lucky timing” is hugely disingenuous in this context - it was a clear strategy of the ‘Big Six’ to form a protected financial elite in English football, with the long term idea of the rich getting richer and the poor of no consequence to them. I would agree it was their “own efforts” but how much credit anyone would care to give those clubs who focused such efforts on the protection of the financial haves at the expense of the have-nots would rather depend on your politics.
Ethically offensive and destructive of competition as the establishment of the EPL was, it was lightyears away from autocratic regimes and oligarchs pumping zillions into underachieving clubs, as if football was just a cheat version of Championship Manager.
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