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    DELANEY OUT

    I see. So he's only useful for a few seconds in a game during which he normally either scores or gets a shot on target. Other than that he's useless. Right.

    no, normally he doesn't score. and he rarely gets a shot on target either. And we're playing the rest of the game with 10 men. Either we're a team with limited players who needs to maximise every aspect of our performance, or we're just a bunch of chumps set up to help robbie Keane become the Ali Daei of European football.

    Fuck off Robbie. Fuck off back to LA

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      DELANEY OUT

      Bryaniek wrote: Zlatan got the assist to the second goal and was an outlet for keeping posession. Zlatan contributes more to the game as a team player.
      Grand. Except we don't have a player anywhere near as good as him.
      You pick your best players. You need defenders who can defend, midfielders who can tackle and pass and strikers who can score goals. Robbie Keane is our best player at scoring goals. Blaming him for contributing to our defeat against Sweden and failing to acknowledge the part played by our duffer midfielders and under-par defenders is crazy.

      Bryaniek wrote: I can see the argument for keeping Robbie Keane in the team, but for me the cons outweigh the pros. Seeing that he's playing in MLS, a lot of managers in Europe have come to the conclusion that the cons of Robbie Keane outweigh the pros.
      I'm not saying he's flawless. I'm saying what better options are there?

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        DELANEY OUT

        Bryaniek wrote:
        If you had to bet money on it would you back Connor Sammon to put away a loose ball in the heat of a tight game?
        This is a massive straw man argument.
        How so?

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          DELANEY OUT

          Bryaniek wrote:
          Originally posted by Keyzer
          Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!
          What robbie Keane does is stand around and wait for a scoring opportunity to fall his way. so effectively he's useful for only seconds in every game, and even then he doesn't manage that in most of his games. We can't play against the faroe islands or georgia in every game, so he should just fuck off.
          I see. So he's only useful for a few seconds in a game during which he normally either scores or gets a shot on target. Other than that he's useless. Right.
          Yes. If he is being a deadweight for the other 89 minutes on the pitch, then you could say that he is contributing to goals at the wrong end.

          In the case of a goalkeeper fumbling crosses, this is easy to judge. In the case of a striker, it's more difficult to judge.
          Point out to me the goals he's directly contributed to us conceding. I mean directly not 'goals where he lost the ball then the opposition played it through the midfield and the defence and scored'.

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            DELANEY OUT

            AAAAARGH, but the reason that it's so easy to play through our midfield is because we have to play 4-4-2 to accommodate Robbie Fucking Keane.

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              DELANEY OUT

              Because nobody is suggesting that we make a direct swap of Robbie Keane for Conor Sammon, and you know that. For starters, Conor Sammon is not even in the squad.

              What is being suggested is that Robbie Keane is left out to accommodate an entirely different system of playing. If Robbie Keane fit in with such a system, that would be great. But he doesn't.

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                DELANEY OUT

                Keyzer wrote:
                Originally posted by Bryaniek
                Originally posted by Keyzer
                Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!
                What robbie Keane does is stand around and wait for a scoring opportunity to fall his way. so effectively he's useful for only seconds in every game, and even then he doesn't manage that in most of his games. We can't play against the faroe islands or georgia in every game, so he should just fuck off.
                I see. So he's only useful for a few seconds in a game during which he normally either scores or gets a shot on target. Other than that he's useless. Right.
                Yes. If he is being a deadweight for the other 89 minutes on the pitch, then you could say that he is contributing to goals at the wrong end.

                In the case of a goalkeeper fumbling crosses, this is easy to judge. In the case of a striker, it's more difficult to judge.
                Point out to me the goals he's directly contributed to us conceding. I mean directly not 'goals where he lost the ball then the opposition played it through the midfield and the defence and scored'.
                If you are only interested in things that can easily be measured with a yard stick then you should stop watching a subtle, team sport like football and watch track and field instead.

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                  DELANEY OUT

                  He's played in loads of different systems - and prospered - in his club career. The only reason Ireland were using the system set up just to accommodate him was because we had a crazy old man for a manager who couldn't conceive of playing any other way. Now someone else has a chance to impose their tactics on the team, let's give Robbie another chance to be a goal poacher there to mop up chances and let the team play around him.

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                    DELANEY OUT

                    Bryaniek wrote:
                    Originally posted by Keyzer
                    Originally posted by Bryaniek
                    Originally posted by Keyzer
                    Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!
                    What robbie Keane does is stand around and wait for a scoring opportunity to fall his way. so effectively he's useful for only seconds in every game, and even then he doesn't manage that in most of his games. We can't play against the faroe islands or georgia in every game, so he should just fuck off.
                    I see. So he's only useful for a few seconds in a game during which he normally either scores or gets a shot on target. Other than that he's useless. Right.
                    Yes. If he is being a deadweight for the other 89 minutes on the pitch, then you could say that he is contributing to goals at the wrong end.

                    In the case of a goalkeeper fumbling crosses, this is easy to judge. In the case of a striker, it's more difficult to judge.
                    Point out to me the goals he's directly contributed to us conceding. I mean directly not 'goals where he lost the ball then the opposition played it through the midfield and the defence and scored'.
                    If you are only interested in things that can easily be measured with a yard stick then you should stop watching a subtle, team sport like football and watch track and field instead.
                    I'll take that as 'I can't find any.'

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                      DELANEY OUT

                      Keyzer, think of it as if he had been sent off. A team with ten men is more likely to concede goals, even though they will usually switch to 4-4-1.
                      The player off the pitch is hindering the teams ability to defend, even though by definition he hasn't contributed directly in the concession of a goal. A lazy striker hinders in much the same way.

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                        DELANEY OUT

                        I'll take that as 'I can't find any.'
                        Of course I can't. I already pointed out to you that Robbie Keane is not a goalkeeper. He's a striker, he plays further up the pitch, so he doesn't contribute "directly" to conceded goals.

                        Like I said, if you want a sport whereby everything can be directly measured in numbers, then you should try watching track and field.

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                          DELANEY OUT

                          Ah here, I'm gonna leave this now because there's no point. Here we have a truly great international striker, one of the best of all time, over fifty goals for his country and you lot want to replace him with, I dunno, Sammon or Walters or whoever else you think is gonna score goals regularly against international defences. Well, good luck to ye. I can't wait to see how we fare when Robbie finally bows out. You'll all be begging for him to come back after a year.

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                            DELANEY OUT

                            But Robbie Doesn't score regularly against international defences. In the seven years between sept 2000 and 2007 he didn't score a single away goal in qualifiers. since that goal against holland in 2000, he's scored 2 goals against teams that finished in the top three of our qualifying groups. And he recently managed one goal from open play in 20 internationals.

                            Whatever justification there might have been for picking him for his nippiness around the box, that vanished a long time ago. The time has come to try something different. He can barely fucking move any more, and he's playing third division standard football. But he has a certain status, and he's going to use that to help push up that goal record by another two or three goals over the next two years.

                            We have to try something else, even if it's only because he's 33.

                            Fuck him.

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                              DELANEY OUT

                              Keyzer wrote: You'll all be begging for him to come back after a year.
                              The one player I'd beg to have back in an Ireland shirt is Damien Duff. He's 34, but he seems to have paid a lot of attention to coaches throughout his career and has the brains to play team football in spite of his diminished pace.

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                                DELANEY OUT

                                Keyzer wrote: over fifty goals for his country
                                60, actually.

                                I personally think he's now miles past it, and the idea of him staying on for Euro 2016 is ludicrous and self-centred. However, some people on here would have you believe that he's always been shit and never scored against a good international team in his life, which is absolute fucking bollocks. He's the best finisher we've ever had by several million miles and would walk into an all-time Ireland XI.

                                Ibrahimovic did indeed have a fine game against us, and why wouldn't he? We're not much of a team, the last time we looked a plausible outfit was late 2009, and at this stage other sides must absolutely love playing against us. Beginning with the Russia match three years ago this month, we've been outgunned to various extents in every game we've played against a vaguely half-decent opponent, from Spain and Italy and Germany all the way down to Austria and Armenia. And so it will prove again tonight.

                                Noel King isn't announcing the team until an hour before kick-off, which is standard for Champions League matches but unusual for an Ireland international. I hope the margin can be kept down to two or three.

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                                  DELANEY OUT

                                  I'm slightly bewildered at why Zlatan has any relevance to this argument in the first place.

                                  Keyzer, think of it as if he had been sent off. A team with ten men is more likely to concede goals, even though they will usually switch to 4-4-1.
                                  The player off the pitch is hindering the teams ability to defend, even though by definition he hasn't contributed directly in the concession of a goal. A lazy striker hinders in much the same way.
                                  Does this work in this context though? This assumes that Ireland have 9 other outfield players who are a) not lazy and b) good enough to contribute defensively even when they run around a lot. I'm not really sure that's the case.

                                  Keane might be lazy and past it but he is the best bet Ireland has for goals. If you are the manager who approaches games on this basis then you craft your team around this knowledge and pick other worker drones to do his running for him.

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                                    DELANEY OUT

                                    That's a self fulfilling prophecy though. Robbie Keane has to be in a team. As a result we've have to play a partner whose job is to knock the ball down to him. That leaves us with eight outfield players. That means we have to play with two central midfielders. THey're always outnumbered so it means we can't defend in midfield, or we can't hold onto the ball. this leaves us playing with three lines, who are miles apart.

                                    This means that the only way that we can get the ball away from our penalty area is to kick it long, for Robbies partner to knock down to him.

                                    THe only way that we can conceivably score under this set up is for a defender to score from a set piece, for Robbie Keane to score if the opponents are bad enough, or for the wind to accidentally carry the ball into the goal. Like Mick McCarthy's 75 yard free kick off the crossbar against England.

                                    IT's fucking terrible. Absolutely fucking terrible, and keane is using his status, and his popularity among people who should really know better to push the caps total nearer 200 and the goals total nearer 65.

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                                      DELANEY OUT

                                      Austria 4/1 to win in Stockholm.

                                      Not bad odds.

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                                        DELANEY OUT

                                        The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: IT's fucking terrible.
                                        Tell me about it. Still, it's a living.

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                                          DELANEY OUT

                                          The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: That's a self fulfilling prophecy though. Robbie Keane has to be in a team. As a result we've have to play a partner whose job is to knock the ball down to him.
                                          Not true. Just not true. That wasn't how Spurs played when he was in the team, it wasn't how Leeds played with him or Coventry or Liverpool or whoever. The only teams who've used him as a recipient for the long ball have been us and Wolves. That's the manager's fault, not Keane's.

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                                            DELANEY OUT

                                            But it's years since he played for those clubs. And now he's so old and slow his game, which was always seriously limited, has shrunk to just standing around and pointing. He barely looks for unwarranted freekicks any more.

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                                              DELANEY OUT

                                              Now that Trap has gone, I for one am eager to watch the tactical flexibility in systems and formations that Berbaslug promised me didn't occur only because of the outdatedness of the manager. Not because the team are too rubbish to master anything more complicated than 442 or anything like that.

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                                                DELANEY OUT

                                                Your last point is itself rubbish. Trap was regularly playing McCarthy and Whelan in the centre of a two man central midfield. Neither of these players play in such a formation for their clubs.

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                                                  DELANEY OUT

                                                  Glenn Whelan played in a Stoke City team that was the archetypal 442 or 4411 Premiership side for a number of years under Pullis. McCarthy played at Wigan in a formation that could be called 343. There might have been a different defensive and attacking set-up but there were two central midfielders.

                                                  The point you were trying to make but failed might have been better served by referencing certain senior England players who have played and prospered in different formations for their club side, and yet the English national team ends up in some form of 442 or 4411, regardless of who the frustrated manager is.

                                                  The difference is of course that these club sides have foreign players to help make these systems works. If England cannot play with tactical flexibility considering the standard of some of their players, why should we believe Ireland can.

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                                                    DELANEY OUT

                                                    Khedira puts Germany ahead with the aid of a big deflection off somebody or other (I'm in work sneaking glances at RTE's terrible stream). Stokes gave the ball away cheaply to Lahm, who fed Khedira.

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