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Moyes Don't Cry - English Premier League 2022/23

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    Originally posted by G-Man View Post

    Wow!

    Even if the YNWA-singing was sincere, it was still an assertion of an identity that was inappropriate for the occasion. And inappropriate behaviour, even if committed without guile, is subject to criticism. That doesn't require much debate, really.
    That wasn't the argument, G-man. The case put by Janik and that I was arguing with (before Sean decided to make his super helpful contribution) was that it was deliberately inappropriate in an attempt to make it about them.

    It doesn't just end up as that, it is intended as that. This is our way of paying tribute. Our way is special. Because we are special. Etc.

    If you read a bit further back rather than automatically taking a side you'd see that in the context of what had been said up till then, I basically agree with you. Hence the " yeah, I wouldn't have done it."
    what I objected to is the kneejerk ascribing of the worst possible interpretation (not by you, but by other thread contributors) to the motivations of a load of people they don't know based on some shit tribal stereotypes.


    Last edited by hobbes; 19-02-2023, 12:15.

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      Or a Toby succinctly put it "I see we're doing that thing of "arguing against something no-one disagrees with" again."

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        I read Janik's comment in response to the "this is how we pay tribute to people" defence that someone else put forward.

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          Can't speak for Janik but my view of it is that Liverpool fans in the ground decided that the tribute needed their own special touch. They might well have intended it as giving Atsu a warriors send off, but it was only ever going to come across as crass, insensitive and making it all about themselves. A tribute with added #THISMEANSMORE. The equivalent of striding to the front of a parade and unfurling the biggest banner.
          Hobbes, peering through his prism, seems to think that this opinion is entirely borne out of hatred for Liverpool and some sort of tribal thing, because that's easier than refuting or accepting any criticism. You can't get more Liverpool than that.

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            Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
            I read Janik's comment in response to the "this is how we pay tribute to people" defence that someone else put forward.
            No one wrote anything like that.
            Unless you're talking about Satchmo's post, which was after Janik's. And he isn't as far as I'm aware a Liverpool fan.

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              Originally posted by Sean of the Shed View Post
              Can't speak for Janik but my view of it is that Liverpool fans in the ground decided that the tribute needed their own special touch. They might well have intended it as giving Atsu a warriors send off, but it was only ever going to come across as crass, insensitive and making it all about themselves. A tribute with added #THISMEANSMORE. The equivalent of striding to the front of a parade and unfurling the biggest banner.
              Hobbes, peering through his prism, seems to think that this opinion is entirely borne out of hatred for Liverpool and some sort of tribal thing, because that's easier than refuting or accepting any criticism. You can't get more Liverpool than that.
              Fuck me Sean, this is genuinely mad.
              What a world it is where "I wouldn't have done it" is a myopic and tribal defence.
              You're like that Brexiter shouting at the ERG Tory MP the other day that he wasn't Brexity enough.

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                "I wouldn't have done it" is fine, but you've then gone on to try and defend everyone who did do it and put the criticism of them down to tribalism.
                They shouldn't have done it.
                Or in Brexit comparison language "I voted remain myself, but the public have spoken so let's just get on with it."
                Last edited by Sean of the Shed; 19-02-2023, 13:25.

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                  Now you're just making things up.

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                    My two cents: people should stop talking about this now. It's just not a big deal.

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                      Originally posted by hobbes View Post

                      No one wrote anything like that.
                      Unless you're talking about Satchmo's post, which was after Janik's. And he isn't as far as I'm aware a Liverpool fan.
                      TRL wrote "it was meant as a tribute" to redsplain it all to us. So, actually, hobbes, someone did write something like that.

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                        This is wild

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                          I venture in here now and again and it never takes long before it's completely wild.

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                            Brilliant atmosphere which was upped by the fact we'd been gubbed 6-0 in the reverse fixture, so the fans had no real expectations and even clapped them off at 0-1 down at half time. I'd have took a 0-2 before kick off, which would have been a big improvement on the game at the Etihad, so to get a 1-1, scoring with 10 to go was fantastic. The goal was some really nice play too. Posted the video link on the matchday thread. De Bruyne and Haaland forgot their shooting boots thankfully, so the off target count was pretty high, but the defence protected Navas pretty well for the most part. Cooper played Danilo a DM as the left forward in a 4-3-3 which was unusual, but using his youth and energy to help out down that side where most of the City attacks came, seemed to work quite well. He got caught in possession a few times, as he's not quite up to the speed of the English game yet, but that'll improve as he's only young. Felipe was very good in defence, though going the other way he put in a few sloppy passes straight into trouble. Still finding having Navas in goal quite surreal.

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                              Originally posted by Nesta View Post
                              My two cents: people should stop talking about this now. It's just not a big deal.
                              Back off. This is great telly.

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                                Originally posted by hobbes View Post

                                That wasn't the argument, G-man. The case put by Janik and that I was arguing with (before Sean decided to make his super helpful contribution) was that it was deliberately inappropriate in an attempt to make it about them.

                                It doesn't just end up as that, it is intended as that. This is our way of paying tribute. Our way is special. Because we are special. Etc.

                                If you read a bit further back rather than automatically taking a side you'd see that in the context of what had been said up till then, I basically agree with you. Hence the " yeah, I wouldn't have done it."
                                what I objected to is the kneejerk ascribing of the worst possible interpretation (not by you, but by other thread contributors) to the motivations of a load of people they don't know based on some shit tribal stereotypes.

                                You have misunderstood the cause and effect in what I posted there (what was it that Toby said about arguing with what you think people have said rather than what they actually did?). Choosing to commemorate in that way made it about the fans who were singing that rather than what was being commemorated, and so inappropriate. Even if they meant well - we will show how heartfelt our sorrow is by choosing something deeply meaningful to us - it's still massively egocentric.

                                Originally posted by Third rate Leszno View Post
                                Well, yeah - as well intentioned as it is, if other people view it like that then there's not much 'we' can do about it, other than stop singing it in those situations - which I'd be fine with, but I'm not as wedded to it as yer actual proper Reds.
                                This nails it rather. And shows the problem with TrL's "actual proper Reds".
                                Last edited by Janik; 19-02-2023, 14:57.

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                                  Just leaving this here.

                                  https://twitter.com/LFC/status/712984996399681537?t=ZKzP7UoMUaKSKcTYP8H-7A&s=19

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                                    Wild and dispiriting.

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                                      I dunno, if a group of fans have a particular way of behaving during tributes, then surely it's grand. And it's you'll never walk alone they were singing, (a song sung on similar occasions since the Munich Air crash) if it was "ferry across the mersey" then maybe I might get more exercised.

                                      That Johan Cruyff quote tweet is absolutely fucking tragic though, but i don't know if this is that

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                                        Btw, I will not understand as long as I live how that wasn't a red card for sabitser. It was amusing though to see that graeme souness thinks some things are red cards

                                        "Wout faes is a pound shop David luiz" discuss.

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                                          Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                          I dunno, if a group of fans have a particular way of behaving during tributes, then surely it's grand.
                                          What about just doing what's asked for? If that's applause, then clap. If it's silence, shut the fuck up. If it's a particular song, sing the song. No room for misunderstanding then.

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                                            Maybe, but this is 2023, and we should just be grateful that there wasn't booing because he played for rival clubs

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                                              Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                                              Does anyone else wonder whether Seamus Coleman actually meant that?

                                              Edit - just heard his interview. Protested too much for me, Clive.
                                              He looks twice, sees there's no-one within 25 yards of the goal, and he said on the premier sports coverage that he wasn't going to be able to get his foot around it to cross it back. He meant to shoot, but was extremely surprised to see it go in.

                                              I've got to say that whole thing about nick pope is kind of tragic. It's sad for him on a personal level that he's going to miss the league cup final, but then again he shouldn't have done something that has been getting goalkeepers sent off from before he was born. But it was kind of inevitable that you were going to get the usual suspects complaining that it would only be common sense to allow him play in the cup final, because actions shouldn't have consequences, and he gave us a bit of a laugh in the manner that he tried to clear the ball by resting his cheek on it and then grabbing it. There is no fucking rule that they don't want to have exceptions for if they don't like it. It started with sky's genius in residence Jamie Redknapp, and then engulfed all three MOTD presenters.
                                              Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 19-02-2023, 15:52.

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                                                Originally posted by Harbinger of Hope View Post
                                                Brilliant atmosphere which was upped by the fact we'd been gubbed 6-0 in the reverse fixture, so the fans had no real expectations and even clapped them off at 0-1 down at half time. I'd have took a 0-2 before kick off, which would have been a big improvement on the game at the Etihad, so to get a 1-1, scoring with 10 to go was fantastic. The goal was some really nice play too. Posted the video link on the matchday thread. De Bruyne and Haaland forgot their shooting boots thankfully, so the off target count was pretty high, but the defence protected Navas pretty well for the most part. Cooper played Danilo a DM as the left forward in a 4-3-3 which was unusual, but using his youth and energy to help out down that side where most of the City attacks came, seemed to work quite well. He got caught in possession a few times, as he's not quite up to the speed of the English game yet, but that'll improve as he's only young. Felipe was very good in defence, though going the other way he put in a few sloppy passes straight into trouble. Still finding having Navas in goal quite surreal.
                                                Forest getting away with the most blatant 'dogso' red card and possible penalty since.... er, rashford in the stadium of optical illusions in barcelona last thursday, definitely helped. How did they get away with that?

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                                                  "Iheanacho needs to do better there, the ball has been bouincing off him all game" Says Gary over footage of martinez ploughing into the back of him in the lead up to the third man utd goal.

                                                  "McTominay shows him the ball, teases him almost" over footage of tielemans ploughing into mc tominay with absolutely no reference to the ball.

                                                  At least he's consistent about victim blaming the players on the receiving end of fouls.

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                                                    handball now a mystery

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