Saint Greavsie

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

There is no doubt Ramey got it right in 1966. To Greaves credit that he accepted this even if he never was able to fully engage in the celebrations or history making.

He was shattered by hepatitis for most of the 65/66 season, and barely made the tournament. There's an amazing documentary on bt sport at the moment. The footage is extraordinary They're all smoking in the dressing rooms all the time. Apparently his pre match routine was to spend 15 minutes in the jacks with the programme, doing god knows what, and then the spurs physio would give him his shot of brandy, and out they would go.

I can't imagine what it is like to have to deal with a cot death at 21.

[Amor de Cosmos]

In our house he'd have been out-voted by Jimmy McIlroy and Dennis Law, but I'd probably have gone for Greaves.

[ursus arctos]

McIlroy is a bold choice

[Ray de Galles]

And also from a different island, if we're using NS's criteria.

Or was that your point?

[Amor de Cosmos]

McIlroy is a bold choice

My Mum was Burnley girl. Plus that team never really got the national respect they'd have commanded in a larger town, and neither did their players. Connelly and Adamson were two others who'd have been feted much more if they were based in London or Manchester.

[Amor de Cosmos]

And also from a different island, if we're using NS's criteria.

Or was that your point?

TBH I hadn't noticed that. I was just considering the best First Division footballers I'd seen, or read about regularly, when I was a kid.

[Satchmo Distel]

I thought that on S&G he had good comic timing and was usually enjoyable. His playing career was before my time but the stats speak for themselves. Unfortunately, he was a Sun columnist in the 80s (infact for 30 years, 1979-2009) so there will have been some ghostwritten racism in his name, such as doubting John Barnes' commitment to the England cause due to his Jamaican origins (it's impossible to know if Greaves strongly held that view or was just being paid to have his name fixed to that opinion by a scum journalist). I'm not aware of the Gullitt comment but it would hardly be a shock to discover that someone born in 1940 had dodgy views on racial humour.

On 1966, it's sometimes forgotten that he played all the group games and didn't score. Something was clearly up. I hadn't realized that he was given three further caps in 1967. Obviously he'd have doubled his 57 caps and 44 goals if he had played this century. This was the last famous international he played (how many are still alive from these?) https://www.11v11.com/matches/englan...l-1967-229786/

On "best ever", I have always assumed Bobby Moore has that crown as he was impeccable in 1966-70 and peerless in his position worldwide, whereas Greaves would have to compete with Pele, Law, Eusebio, etc, and I don't think they can be easily separated (Pele presumably gets it because of winning 3 World Cups, the first at 17, and because his highlights reel is always the one that gets repeated).

Finally, I recall that when Peter Brackley died, his RIP thread had the famous S&G clip. Since then both S&G have followed him to the grave.

Brackley 14.10.2018
Saint 1.3.2021
Greaves 19.9.2021

[Simon G]

My uncle will scream until he's blue in the face that Bobby Moore is the best English player of all time.

He's unmoved on Greaves being the best forward though.

Like others, my first recollection on Greaves was on Saint and Greavesie when I was about 6/7 years old. I always saw him as being that jokey uncle, the one who'd always be telling the kids silly jokes and making them roll on the floor in laughter. Then I read his stats, and saw some footage as I got older and realised how good he really was.

[steveeeeeeeee]

Here's Greaves talking about the world cup final in 1981:

https://twitter.com/BBCArchive/status/1439882630548410371

He comes across really considered and eloquent, I like the way he focusses the blame on himself, never England, never the players, it was his own disappointment and torment.

I always loved Saint and Greavsie; "Come on the Accies!", I still check Hamilton Academical scores now and then. Two ex-pros having a light-hearted and inclusive review of footballing news, such a simple idea, but revolutionary at the time and a format still followed today.

My granddad always said Dixie Dean was the best footballer he'd ever seen, my dad said it was Dalglish. I'd probably say Quaresma.

[jwdd27]

That clip does highlight his intelligence and eloquence, which his later "Greavsie" persona kept hidden up to a point, although it's worth remembering that the majority of the programme was played pretty straight, it's just that the banter and the collapses into laughter were more memorable.

[My Name Is Ian]

I mentioned a couple of days ago on that there Twitter that Jimmy Greaves is and forever will be my dad's favourite player, and that there'll be a lot of dads feeling sad about this..

It's just a coincidence, but for me Jimmy Greaves is the last of the black and white footballers. He went to West Ham about the same time that Match of the Day started broadcasting in colour, and I think that cut-off point is psychologically important for the audience. When I was ten, footage from, say, 15 years earlier looked like it was recorded 100 years earlier in a way that's impossible, nowadays.

The 1965/66 season was the turning point. He was quite ill during the season and didn't score in any of England's group matches, and it was a no-brainer to keep Hurst in after Greaves got injured against France and Hurst scored against Argentina. "I felt like the loneliest man in the world", was what he said he felt about it, and I can feel that. Put yourself in his shoes in that moment, as everybody else is celebrating but it's your replacement who's just become the first to score a hat-trick in a World Cup final. Who's going to run to you?

He certainly didn't lose it immediately after the 1966 World Cup. He scored 25 goals the next season, and one in the FA Cup final. The booze accelerated slowly at first, but it things got worse after he went to West Ham. He was offered the chance to join Brian Clough in 1969 but turned it down because he didn't want to leave London. Given how Clough and Greaves' relationships with alcohol ended up independently of each other, there are no guarantees that going to Derby might have worked.

And I agree with what has been said about Saint & Greavsie. I was 19 when that show came to an end, and I was reading WSC by that time; obviously I thought that golf club humour was lame. I'm much more fondly disposed towards it now than I was at the time, though, and while it was largely jocular, it did weigh in other more serious issues. They did a report on Aldershot when they went bust, and another time they followed Chester supporters on a coach to Macclesfield while they were groundsharing. I think they're both on YouTube.

There was probably some pretty terrible stuff said in various episodes, but as I've said on other threads on this forum, I've watched a lot of TV from that era and earlier, and what takes your breath away is how widespread unreconstructed attitudes were on TV at the time. But christ knows we could do with some humour in football that isn't of the Soccer AM variety.

So yeah, I was sad about his death, for my dad. Someone who meant an awful lot to him has died. And I hope that Jimmy saw the outpouring of love there was for him after he had his stroke. Recovering from that and being a recovering alcoholic shows what a tough old boot he was. I was touched by it at the time, and I've been touched by the last few days, too.

[Jah Womble]

Envious of a good friend of mine, who's - significantly - five years older than I am.

He got to see Greaves play.

[torres]

Without a shadow of a doubt the finest British striker I ever seen. Had the pleasure of seeing him many times at Anfield. That goal against ManU where he picks the ball up near the half-way line is still a work of absolute genius.

[RobW]

Was going through the student newspapers, looking for something else when I came across this interview (and great photo) from 1963.

[Baptiste]

In the Roger Hunt obituary https://www.theguardian.com/football...-hunt-obituary mention is made of of Greaves taking a corner. Did he usually take them or was that an unusual occurrence?

[ale]

My grandad - not a Spurs fan but of that generation that would go and watch whatever football was on their doorstep on a given Saturday - always described Greaves as the best player he'd ever seen live. Didn't even have to think twice. Saint and Greavesie was seen as a bit naff by those of us of the Angry Young Fanzine generation but its playful lack of pomposity would probably have been welcome in the current climate.

Anyway, an undoubted great of the game. RIP

Yea WSC were scathing of them back in days of their formation. TBF the programme was one of the reasons WSC was necessary.