Copa America 2021

[Sam]

I'll see the comments about this being the worst Argentina side Messi's played in and point out that this lot play like a team and work for each other rather than standing around hoping he'll sort everything out for them once they win the ball back. The defence isn't the finished article yet (although it was good enough to keep the tournament's second best attack out tonight on their home patch) but going forward in a normal match they look better than they have in years. And Scaloni's no Alejandro Sabella or José Pekerman, but Argentina improved together during the 2019 Copa and did so again this year, so he's obviously got something when it comes to team-building skills.

I can't wait to record the next episode of the pod.

[Sam]

Oh, and Scaloni said after the match that Messi was carrying a hamstring problem through the semi and the final. Certainly explains his comparative lack of mobility tonight compared with earlier matches, although I'll have to jog my memory regarding the semi. Thank fuck he doesn't have a nervous club putting pressure on the AFA not to aggravate it by playing him.

[Satchmo Distel]

Argentina's wins have been in clusters - strong 1950s but then a gap to 1991-93, then another gap to 2021. Maybe Messi might get a second one unless he retires after Qatar (he'll be 37 in 2024)?

[Sporting]

Why do I find Messi so boring? He's a beautiful player to watch, but I find it all so dull and joyless

Messi is boring in mediocre sides, which has been his fate since Barcelona's last CL win. He wasn't boring with Xavi and Iniesta behind him.

I'm struggling to understand these comments. Last season he was often the only player making Barcelona interesting.

[Sam]

Chile is on the compilation. Different British guy on the other games, then?

Ah yes. Those are my (rather quiet, because it was my first game and I wasn't holding the mic properly) comments on the Chile highlights, yes. The others are my good mate and world feed colleague Peter, who also does world feed stuff for the Argentine league and the Libertadores.

In case you're wondering why we ended up doing this for a tournament in Brazil, by the way (since Gero upthread thought I was in Rio), it's because it was originally meant to be in Argentina and Colombia, and then just Argentina, and was only moved to Brazil at the last minute. My guess is that ripping up the host broadcasting contract and sorting out a whole new one (with a bunch of new commentary teams) would have been more hassle than it was worth.

[Sporting]

In the end, I'm not a big fan of home teams winning tournaments, so I'm glad Argentina won.

Omen for this evening?

[Sam]

I'm struggling to understand these comments. Last season he was often the only player making Barcelona interesting.

It's about the sort of player you enjoy watching, isn't it. I've always agreed with Maradona's assessment (in his autobiography) of Zidane: fantastic player but there was something sort of clinical about him that, for me, made it hard to warm to the experience of watching him. I don't happen to agree with EIM and Satchmo on this one, obviously, but they're not saying he's rubbish.

[Satchmo Distel]

I only find him boring when he's asked to do all the work, like he had to do in WC 2018 and Barcelona's CL defeats. It doesn't suit his strengths, in my opinion, and he's not enjoying himself.

[Sporting]

I don't happen to agree with EIM and Satchmo on this one, obviously, but they're not saying he's rubbish.

No, that was obvious and clearly stated.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Well there's literally nothing separating the Messi or Ronaldo debate now except either Portugal or Argentina winning next year's world cup (if they both make that their swansong).

[Gerontophile]

Get the fuck in.

Yep. Lots of love from Nevada.

[Gerontophile]

And whilst Messi is in the spotlight, the other players do the work, unlike Brasil. Who rely on Neymar more than one would hope. They suck. Vortexially.

[torres]

I thought it was really funny that they had to bring on a toilet roll for Neymar to mop up the tears.

As for the football, if that’s the best South America can come up with they’re as well packing it in.

[Satchmo Distel]

I'm struggling to see a South American side make the semi-finals in Qatar unless FIFA fuck with the draw.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

If in doubt, gay it out.

It's fairly clear that they were just having a camera free chat, though if you didn't know about the lip readers, you'd think that messi was helping him stave off an emotional collapse.

At the final whistle the commentators first comment was about how this grim game between two fairly mediocre teams at the end of a completely pointless tournament would affect the discussion of GOAT. I've got to say that I wasn't convinced

I think to be honest it highlighted the pointlessness, ,qsterility and stupidity of that debate that got dull in 2010. Because the future looks bleak as fuck for Argentina, and that final in 2014 is look more and more like an incredible achievement.

[Satchmo Distel]

I would have thought that the CL becoming a higher standard than international football has made using the latter as a criterion look stupid. Why would you use Euro 16 as a higher measure of Ronaldo's class than his CL performances? Messi's greatness for me is his Barcelona performances between approximately 2008 and 2015; his Argentina career is interesting but not part of the discussion.

[Sporting]

Messi's greatness for me is his Barcelona performances between approximately 2008 and 2015; h

He's hardly been a parsimonious goal scorer since then, nor so in assists. Surely his stats when playing without his former stellar teammates say even more about how he's carried his club.

[danielmak]

I think you can partially assess the greatness of Christiano and Messi based on the success of the national teams, but the direct comparisons to Maradona and Pele fall flat because the national team game has changed. The mysteries surrounding those teams has dipped dramatically, most players in South America who play for the national teams no longer play in domestic leagues (and often are spread all around the globe so they don't see each other as often in terms of learning one another's strengths and defecits on the pitch). But also winning a competition isn't down to Messi. Plus it's not like Argentina has sucked during his time. They've made it to many finals. Portugal won in 2016 but that side was hardly a shining example of footballing prowess. Portugal won because the tournament was bloated and a second to last place team was able to get through. That team didn't win many games during 90. And Christiano wasn't even on the pitch for most of the final. So, trophies can be some measure of greatness, but football is not tennis where trophies are truly won by a single athlete.

I watched some of the group games from Copa America but was traveling during some of the tournament and used my TV time for Euro matches. I also watched out of order a lot, but in general I don't see that Copa America is a gauge for WC success. The Copa is usually a cagey affair. At times the tournament is used to test out domestic players or to get a look at some peripheral players outside the big 4 leagues in Europe. The tournament often takes place amidst some kind of chaos on the continent (this year that was moving the whole thing a week or two before the start date). And although both the Copa and WC take place during the European the summer after the club season has ended, I think players understand what's at stake with the WC in ways that can inspire the proverbial second wind. Plus the CONMEBOL sides get to play weaker UEFA sides, weaker AFC sides, and sides like the US who go from being an attacking team during qualifiers to a team coached to play scared during the WC. (Sorry, had to get that one in.) Winter 2022 is a long time from now in footballing terms. Look how quickly Germany fell after winning WC 2014, Italy tends to rise and fall. England's team spirit and lack of big egos will shift in they win today. France has had a good run but that usually follows with implosion. Brazil is due for a WC win.

[Sam]

As for the football, if that’s the best South America can come up with they’re as well packing it in.

Right ...

An acquaintance moved to Spain at the start of last year with his girlfriend, who's from here. He reported that her initial impressions of Madrid were that she was angry about how Argentina could have wasted the chance to be great as a country when she saw no reason Buenos Aires couldn't be like Madrid. When he told me this my response was along the lines of, 'Has she ever read a history book? Where does she think the Spanish got the money to start building Madrid exactly?'

So it is with football today. European clubs pick up talent at increasingly young ages from across South America and Africa and take them to Europe to develop. The clubs benefit from this, and in a trickle-down sort of way the national teams to do too, because as the overall strength of the leagues grows the young players coming through find themselves playing against better and better players week in week out until eventually England are making a semi-final followed by a final in consecutive major tournaments as if they haven't spent decades completely going to pieces every time they've so much as thought about a quarter-final.

Meanwhile the nations these players leave behind at young ages have to cope with a major outflow of talent that previously left their top-flight leagues earlier than they'd have liked but now often barely or never even plays in the top flight (Emi Martínez and Lionel Messi being two particularly extreme examples). As danielmak hints in the post above, Europe's top national teams can draw players from a handful of clubs (most notably Spain's great side of a decade ago built largely around players from two teams) who therefore have well-developed partnerships, training together on a regular basis, and European FAs can discuss projects like national training centres to bring players together regularly at youth level and bring them through. If Argentina or Brazil want to do that they need to get permission from rich foreign clubs who aren't beholden to the Argentine or Brazilian associations, and even if those clubs do say yes (which they don't) the first day of training during any break in the club season is basically a write-off due to the travel time (which is a large part of why both Argentina and Brazil play so many friendlies in Europe these days – it's where most of their players are). Meanwhile if they are able to take advantage of any partnerships between players developed at club level it's entirely down to good fortune on the part of the whims of the transfer market, because in the face of everything South America somehow continues to churn out players the rest of the world actually want to have in their teams.

And all of the above is true of coaching talent as well. Why would the best coaches earn peanuts managing a South American national team when they could go to Europe and make a very decent living for themselves (while also not having to deal with bosses anywhere near as awful, from a professional standpoint)? Why do you think Argentina are managed by Lionel Scaloni rather than Mauricio Pochettino or Diego Simeone? Even Scaloni went to Europe for his badges, because that's where the best system for taking them is – Argentina are just lucky he decided to look for a job with the AFA to start with, and then lucked into the top job and has proved to be worth sticking with.

Without a fundamental redistribution of wealth across the planet (which obviously isn't going to happen because the distribution we've got has been working very well for the first world for centuries) it's going to become increasingly difficult to imagine a non-European nation in a (men's) World Cup final, and that's why I've said before that in a couple of decades' time it's my firm belief many people will look back at Argentina's 2014 final and realise just what a player Messi's been for Argentina, because they'll remain the only South American finalists since Brazil 2002 for several World Cups to come. But the reasons aren't difficult to see, which is why when people make comments like the above I get really pissed off. If you'd actually enjoy global football without everything South America has given to the game then fine, sneer at the level it's currently being played at. But do bear in mind that without it, the moneyball you're used to watching in Europe wouldn't be at the same level either. And without the moneyball in Europe, perhaps Saturday night's match would have been a rather higher standard.

[Satchmo Distel]

Great post, Sam.

[Sam]

Thanks, Satchmo. And now it's a day later, torres I do hope you realise this wasn't aimed at you personally or anything, just at the sentiment. I've heard it expressed so often over the last decade and a half (remember I lived off covering Argentine football for ages, so I've been asked about it and been engaged in conversations about it by more people than I can count, who've had every level of exposure from weren't aware Argentines liked football to know far more than I ever will about the game here), that's all.

[jefe]

And all of the above is true of coaching talent as well. Why would the best coaches earn peanuts managing a South American national team when they could go to Europe and make a very decent living for themselves (while also not having to deal with bosses anywhere near as awful, from a professional standpoint)?

The Spanish manager that took Independiente del Valle so far just signed here, to be Charlotte FC's first ever manager, also.

[torres]

No problem at all with that Sam. I was more pissed-off at the badgering of the ref from the first whistle to the last rather than the standard of play.

[Satchmo Distel]

The Spanish manager that took Independiente del Valle so far just signed here, to be Charlotte FC's first ever manager, also.

More on that:

https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/charl...coaching-staff