Reserving judgement

[Discordant Resonance]

With Sociedad B having just secured promotion to the Spanish second tier, and Bilbao B potentially joining them tomorrow, it seems curious that there is no apparent cultural backlash against reserve teams in Spain, even though the pyramid system there is quite extensive and long-standing. By contrast, despite similarly lengthy participation by German second strings in its pyramid, there was considerable uproar at their admission to the third tier, and French reserves have never fared particularly well there, though the national chain of tiers has traditionally been significantly weaker (though less regionalised in the last decade or so). Of course England has remained immune until now, but the suspicion remains that the EFL Trophy experiment is a precursor to eventual insertion in the National League structures.

[Janik]

The English pyramid isn't immune, actually. But it's not the reserve teams of big professional clubs, which means the reserve sides that compete in the pyramid do so at rather low levels - step 7 and similar. For example, the last time the Cambridgeshire County Football League Premier Division (level 11 on the English pyramid or step 7 of non-league) actually played a season, it included Ely City Reserves.
At that level its not much relevant whether a team is a first XI or not - all that matters is 11 players vs 11 players, all of whom want a game of Football.

[Sporting]

With Sociedad B having just secured promotion to the Spanish second tier, and Bilbao B potentially joining them tomorrow, it seems curious that there is no apparent cultural backlash against reserve teams in Spain, even though the pyramid system there is quite extensive and long-standing

People here have never never been concerned.

[Janik]

You have now got me going down a rabbit hole of which reserve team is highest up the pyramid. I've found some at step 6, also in East Anglia - four of the sides due to play in Division 1N of the Eastern Counties League in the latest aborted season were the back-ups of AFC Sudbury, Kings Lynn Town, Leiston and Needham Market.

[ursus arctos]

People here have never never been concerned.

I think that part of that is that the "reserve" sides have very well established identities (reflected in part by those that that have different names). Which of course also reflects the fact that it has been part of Spanish football for a very long time.

[Janik]

People here have never never been concerned.

Except reserve teams did get banned from the Copa del Rey, not long after the year where Real Madrid's reserves, playing as Castilla, made the final. Which suggested there is some concern about the situation.

But if a country doesn't run standalone reserve leagues, as Spain and many others don't, then there is basically no other option but having an open system where reserve (and 3rd, 4th, 5th XIs if these exist) teams are mixed in with smaller club's 1st XIs.

I suspect that is also effectively the situation in East Anglia, leading to reserve teams being in the main pyramid - there just isn't sufficient numbers of sides at close enough playing levels to each other for a purely reserve league to be viable.

[ursus arctos]

Does anywhere outside of Britain have standalone reserve leagues?

[Janik]

I kind of assumed that the MLS had a similar farm system to other North American major leagues. Does it not? Those are effectively reserve leagues on the 'walks like a duck, quacks like a duck' test.

[Discordant Resonance]

I kind of assumed that the MLS had a similar farm system to other North American major leagues. Does it not? Those are effectively reserve leagues on the 'walks like a duck, quacks like a duck' test.

Appears the USL has a mixture of first-teams and reserve outfits.

[ursus arctos]

No, MLS does not currently have a reserve league (some reserve teams play in the USL).

Though it did have one early this century and there is some talk of bringing one back.

As to other major North American leagues, gridiron has never had one and the NBA has only had one since 2001 (with multiple changes in format etc during that period).

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Irish underage international Harvey Neville left man utd, to join fort lauderdale, who seem to be the reserve team of inter Miami. Fort Lauderdale must be excited to have an international footballer of such a level of celebrity....

[Southport Zeb]

Gordon Banks and Teofilio Cublillas both played for the original Fort Lauderdale Strikers

[ursus arctos]

As did George Best and Gerd Mueller

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

How could you both forget Ray Hudson?

[Capybara]

And John Hickton, of course.

[ursus arctos]

How could you both forget Ray Hudson?

Because I saw him play

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Hahaha. Were Fort Lauderdale strikers any good? They figure disproportionately large in my awareness of NASL because they're a pit stop in all the George Best documentaries. (It's basically NY cosmos, Fort Lauderdale Strikers and Vancouver Whitecaps)

[ursus arctos]

They were decent

No championships, one runner up (to Cosmos), several division titles

I saw Best score what is often called the best goal in NASL history against them after he had joined San Jose Earthquakes.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I saw Best score what is often called the best goal in NASL history against them after he had joined San Jose Earthquakes.

Why am I not surprised? Now that goal features extremely prominently in my knowledge of the NASL. That must have looked like magic in the world before Messi. Everything about the clip of that goal suggests that the NASL must have been quite the wild ride. The cheerleaders losing it behind the goal is a pretty iconic moment. You don't get that much these days.

Is it just the camera angle, or is the 18 yard box unusually wide, or is the pitch just unusually narrow?

[Capybara]

Is it just the camera angle, or is the 18 yard box unusually wide, or is the pitch just unusually narrow?

Are they playing on a narrower American football field?

[ursus arctos]

Not only are they playing on an American football field, but they are playing on one with lateral stands fronted by permanent concrete balustrades, so there was literally no room for maneuver.

I am pretty sure it was the narrowest field in the league and had a demonstrable impact on how the game was played.

It was genuinely otherworldly to see him do that live, though my lasting sense was that much of the crowd didn't realize how special it was.

[Capybara]

I'm working from memory here from when I knew better about these things, but I recall when I was young and used to read the Laws of the Game, the minimum size of a football pitch was 100yds x 50 yds but that for competitive matches the dimensions had to be larger than that. I guess that as the NASL were sometimes 'innovative' with interpretation of the rules, they were able to sanction such a narrow pitch. Again from memory, I think (in the 70s at least) Arsenal had the narrowest pitch in the Football League at around 70 yards - quite a difference.

[jameswba]

I'm working from memory here from when I knew better about these things, but I recall when I was young and used to read the Laws of the Game, the minimum size of a football pitch was 100yds x 50 yds but that for competitive matches the dimensions had to be larger than that. I guess that as the NASL were sometimes 'innovative' with interpretation of the rules, they were able to sanction such a narrow pitch. Again from memory, I think (in the 70s at least) Arsenal had the narrowest pitch in the Football League at around 70 yards - quite a difference.

I remember reading similar in the late 70s or so, but I think Arsenal's dimensions were quoted as 110 x 71 yds, whereas the smallest in the English leagues were a yard narrower. I believe West Ham was one of the smallest. Man City were always said to have the biggest pitch, with Maine Road measuring something like 117 x 78 yds. And was it Simon Inglis who was quoted as saying that 'the vast expanses of Wembley' was just a cliche and a myth, since Wembley had dimensions of 115 x 75 yds, no bigger than half the club pitches in the league?

I never saw dimensions quoted for Scottish pitches, but remember my first visit to Hearts and thinking Tynecastle looked smaller than any other pitch I'd seen pro-football played on.

[Nocturnal Submission]

Why did the referee have a number on his back?

[3 Colours Red]

Probably to designate which ref is in charge, like in other American sports.