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    Originally posted by AMMS View Post
    I’ve watched clubs from Sweden, Belgium, Serbia and Romania play in the final of the European Cup, but football is structured so that can’t happen now. UEFA was complicit in that.

    This super league is an abhorrent idea, but save me the ‘killing competition’ narrative, that’s already happened and I didn’t hear Gary Neville complain about it before. Top level football has been a closed shop to the majority of clubs for years. Unless you’re literally owned by an oil rich country there’s no way of breaking into the top of European football so for the majority of clubs in Europe this won’t make much difference. I support a big club and the height of our ambition currently is simply qualifying for the group stages.

    It’s nice to see all this outrage, but players and managers will go where the money is, it’s their jobs after all. TV companies will be already considering how to get the contract to show this new ‘league’ and sponsors will decide what delivers the best return for their money, emotion will play little part in that. Plus ‘closed’ leagues are nothing new, it’s only recently a pyramid was introduced into Scottish football for example. When I lived in Australia the main rugby league competition had no relegation and promotion, it seemed to function okay that way.

    Football has always always changed, Rangers first senior trophy was the Glasgow Merchants Charity Cup, this ceased to exist in the mid-60s, I’m not sure how many were upset at the time but football has continued in the city since then without it. Football should be the ultimate meritocracy, but it ceased to be that for most clubs a long time ago now. I find myself shrugging my shoulders at this ‘news’, it simply formalises what supporters of clubs in Holland, Belgium, Sweden and Scotland have known for years; the bigger clubs in the bigger countries don’t want to play us. To be fair we’ve done similar to clubs in our own country too, and will again no doubt. However much I might want the European Cup to be made up of the champions of each country and them alone, that is never going to happen again, I’ve made my peace with that.

    Football has changed so much in the last 30 years that clubs like Manchester Utd and Real Madrid no longer resemble football clubs as I understand them. I’m not having a dig at those clubs, just pointing out the obvious. In 1963 Chelsea travelled to Kirkintilloch, a mining village 10 or so miles north of Glasgow, to play a match against Rob Roy, the local semi-pro side (Juniors we call them here). The match ended 3-2 to Chelsea and was apparently evenly contested throughout. Rangers or Celtic wouldn’t play a match against Rob Roy these days far less Chelsea. Indeed Chelsea aren’t interested in playing against Rangers or Celtic these days.

    From my perspective the horse bolted ages ago, some people are just noticing the stable door lying open for the first time.
    Perfectly put. There’s a lot of horror being expressed just now in people from the very countries (mainly England) mainly regarding the expressly closed shop nature of this new proposal. However the CL is in effect a closed shop (well the door may be marginally left open) if you happen to be a team from one of the “smaller” leagues, ie anyone outside the big 5 leagues. That’s probably why there’s a shrugging of the shoulders in the likes of Scotland, Belgium, Switzerland. Etc and maybe Holland to a lesser extent. Fans and teams in these countries are probably shrugging their shoulders looking in from the outside and asking, will this proposal make any difference to us. Probably not.

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      Originally posted by Fussbudget View Post
      Not to mention RB Leipzig and PSG (?) Confusing times for sure
      Qatar won't be too keen on anything that cast a(nother) potential cloud over the world cup. I mean, come 2023, then sure, blow up the governing structures of the sport, who cares

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        Originally posted by DPDPDPDP View Post
        That’s probably why there’s a shrugging of the shoulders in the likes of Scotland, Belgium, Switzerland. Etc and maybe Holland to a lesser extent. Fans and teams in these countries are probably shrugging their shoulders looking in from the outside and asking, will this proposal make any difference to us. Probably not.
        Well of course it won't make much difference to them as it won't affect the structure of their national league. I couldn't give a rat's arse about the CL but I can't ignore this nonsense completely because it will have repercussions for all levels of English football.

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          I can't ignore this nonsense completely because it will have repercussions for all levels of English football.
          Nail on the head.

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            Call me naive but I am surprised they have gone down the closed shop route.

            I always figured a European Super League was inevitable but would be a proper league and have European Super League 2 and 3 and so on. That would then filter into the domestic competitions.

            Closing it off leads to all manner of headaches when they could leave it open. It's not like an open super league wouldnt be dominated by these teams anyway.

            Are they really that bothered by the odd season when an unlikely team bloodies their nose?

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              They don't see it in terms of football. They see it terms of the NFL or NBA, and neither of them have promotion or relegation.

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                Bollocks to the lot of them. Go and play in your exclusive members club league, and hell mend you when it all turns sour.
                The game's still out there, and you actually don't need to look very hard to find it.
                https://twitter.com/TheTerraceTV/status/1384149001084170243

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                  Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                  Patently this is true, but it seems like you;re using it as a reason to do nothing. If this step means that public opinion turns against the way football is run, even if it is late in the day, it;s still important to use that energy to fight against this stuff. Who knows this act of hubris may well be the straw that breaks the camel's back. The whole defeatist thing doesn't really compute for me. It;s a bit like saying government is corrupt get used to it, and if they're even more blatantly and in your face corrupt than they were before, then so what, that's old news.
                  That's a fair criticism of me, I'm not the person to lead the revolution. I'm very jaded by how football is run, how clubs behave, and in all honesty, how many supporters react and behave too, it's really only the thrill of the matches themselves I enjoy now.
                  I guess I'm unsure what 'victory' looks like in this. Best case scenario I can see is some sort of compromise between the super league teams and UEFA where they still get a bigger share of the money and more games against each other but don't leave completely and UEFA keep getting a cut of the pie. Whatever happens I think most countries and clubs will be pushed further into the shadows and marginalised when this has run its course. I'm resigned to defeat, you're correct.

                  While there's widespread condemnation just now I feel sometime soon supporter's will start to back their clubs again, sustained criticism from other clubs and supporters will eventually lead to supporters of Liverpool and Chelsea and AC Milan etc backing their club, I think it's how most of us simply wired. But, if English, Italian and Spanish supporters are moved to create change in their clubs and their FAs following this then no one will be more delighted than me.

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                    Originally posted by Fussbudget View Post
                    I couldn't give a rat's arse about the CL
                    ​​​​​​
                    Indeed.

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                      Originally posted by The Red Max View Post
                      The game's still out there, and you actually don't need to look very hard to find it.
                      Someone retweeted a Manchester United fan asking if there was a non-league club they should go and support because they were so ashamed of what their club had become. I almost suggested FC United of Manchester to them but I wasn't sure if it was genuine cluelessness or some kind of trolling.

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                        I'm not sure I've much to add to this thread other than this: as I've mentioned on other threads, I've been trying to reduce my emotional investment in the fortunes of Liverpool FC (amongst others), for various reasons.

                        This bullshit will definitely help in that endeavour, if nothing else.

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                          Man United shares are up 8.5% already today on the NYSE on the news about this. Which does make me wonder if this is all a "bubble" that the owners of certain clubs have created before dumping their shareholdings tonight? That is how the stock market works, if I remember Dan Akroyd in a Santa costume correctly.

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                            To steal a good phrase from elsewhere.

                            "This is what happens when glory hunters reach a critical mass."

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                              https://twitter.com/RMcElhenney/status/1383832625006014464?s=19

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                                Originally posted by TonTon View Post
                                What would be the relevant court in England and what motion would one file before it?
                                It'd be the Commercial Court https://www.judiciary.uk/?s=commercial+court

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                                  I don't if this will actually happen but.....

                                  https://twitter.com/sgevans/status/1384179503191117830

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                                    The Independent seem to be reporting the above as well now.

                                    Believe it when I see it.

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                                      The Tories have got a new Dead Cat to use now as well.

                                      https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1384177167714590734

                                      They could have done any of this at any point over the last decade but let's not quibble.

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                                        Originally posted by Ray de Galles View Post

                                        You don't think players will be bothered by missing international tournaments?!

                                        I'm not saying they will choose playing in them over competing in a "super league" but the World Cup and Euros Finals are still of huge importance to a vast swathe of players.
                                        For someone like Harry Kane, I'd argue that being England captain and chasing the England all time goalscoring record are major factors in things like his image rights and general level of fame. If he's a bit part player in a mid table ESL team and that's his only exposure on a World level he's going to fall way behind Neymar, Messi, etc.

                                        World Cups and, to a lesser extent, the Euros, break players out of just being famous in the football world to being actually, properly famous, with all that, good and bad, brings with it.

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                                          Having just worked my way through this thread.

                                          Got to say my in initial reaction remains as it was. Off you fuck. A friend was saying to me today that it would diminish the EPL if these teams were expelled, because people want to see their teams playing these "Big 6" (he's a Spurs and says he is appalled at the idea of an esl). My response was that that was nonsense. It would just be different, and more competitive.

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                                            tis news to me that Man Utd are listed on the New York Stock Exchange

                                            how fitting

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                                              I'm trying to figure out if this would be good for MLS.

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                                                If it does go ahead (and I'm dubious it will) I can see it going the way of El Dorado after a few years. That was a bubble of sorts as well. But this lot don't learn from the bits of football history they are aware of, so we can hardly expect them to learn from that.

                                                Originally posted by The Red Max View Post
                                                Someone on an Aberdeen messageboard made the valid point:
                                                They're calling it THE Super League, no mention of Europe - so will this become a global league in 3 - 4 years time?
                                                You would imagine that Boca / River Plate / Santos / Flamengo etc. would love access to the cash sloshing around?
                                                The big European clubs didn't get where they are today by doing anything to enable/encourage South American sides to hang on to top South American players for their peak years.

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                                                  Originally posted by My Name Is Ian View Post
                                                  They don't see it in terms of football. They see it terms of the NFL or NBA, and neither of them have promotion or relegation.
                                                  True. But North American sports evolved, culturally and economically, in an entirely different way to football. Basically they are not international and have never had any real interest in being so.

                                                  The principal owners behind the breakaway clubs are mainly American or Asian, they don't understand, or really care, about 'legacy' fans. Their vision of the game's future doesn't include us. We're the past, so irrelevant long-term. Their goal is to showcase the very best players in the world on an absolutely pristine surface, for the entertainment of an audience who have no community allegiance to either team. That isn't the same as an FA Cup qualifying replay played in the pouring rain on a ploughed field on a Tuesday night somewhere up North. The latter, essentially a romantic view, is my football, and I wouldn't have it any other way, but It's in decline, and TBH has been since I began shaving.

                                                  I... we, are losing the battle, but we may be able prolong the struggle. Can both ideals live together? Not in the same leagues or with similar organisational structures I suspect. We might grow apart amicably. Kind of like Rugby League and Union perhaps, two different codes co-existing. Unfortunately capitalism suggests the smaller, weaker, older just get eaten. And I'm not the hungry one.



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                                                    I have to say that this whole thing is nothing more than football reaping what it has sown over the past 30 years.

                                                    If the biggest clubs in the game want to form their own competition then should it be for anybody to stop them? I've seen complaints that it's unfair on fans. Fans have a choice. They can choose to embrace the new league or they can fight the move. If the club moves against their wishes then ultimately they can choose to continue to support that team, to support another club or to walk away from football. All of the reforms in the game have disadvantaged somebody:

                                                    The formation and evolution of the Champions League was a disadvantage to teams from smaller nations. It made it more difficult for teams from smaller leagues to qualify for the lucrative stages of the tournament and gave far too much representation to teams who weren't domestic champions, simply because those big clubs from major nations brought higher TV viewing figures and more lucrative sponsorship opportunities. Why should the 3rd placed team from the EPL or La Liga deserve better from UEFA than the champions of Hungary or Norway?

                                                    Those left behind? We'll have the Europa League thanks. More money for the Europa League group stages and tough luck to those clubs who didnt qualify. Not enough money for some teams who saw the whole thing as little more than a wooden spoon? They'll still take European football for finishing 6th or 7th in the league at the expense of somebody else's top flight runner up.

                                                    The formation of the EPL back in the day? The distribution of TV contract revenue? Everything in football over the past 30 years has seen a handful of clubs benefit at the cost of everybody else.

                                                    Should UEFA oppose the formation of the new breakaway league? I don't think that it should. It long ago gave up the notion of standing up for every club and became an organisation that focused on nothing more than appeasing the minority of clubs. Don't get me wrong here - the formation of this new breakaway league will have absolutely massive consequences for European football. Domestic TV and sponsorship deals will be devalued if the biggest clubs no longer participate in their domestic league. The UEFA Champions League is no longer a money spinner if the final features Anderlecht v West Ham rather than Real Madrid v Man City. Thats no different to the challenges faced by most domestic leagues when TV audiences abandon home grown clubs in favour of superstars.

                                                    It's certainly no reason for the UK government to intervene. They sat back and did nothing when the EPL and Sky TV changed football in England, and in Scotland as a consequence, beyond recognition. They did little to help following the collapse of ITV Digital and the impact it had on the lower leagues. We've seen clubs bought by people with ill intentions - did government step in to protect Bury?

                                                    If the biggest sides in European football want to form their own competition then let them. It should be of no concern to any fan of any other club. Self interest is certainly at play here. There's a realisation that if the top teams leave the EPL then Sky and BT money follows them. The remaining teams may be able to negotiate a TV deal but it would be nothing like the billions paid to the EPL right now. So clubs continue and instead of paying absolute diddies ?100k a week to bravely battle relegation, they pay players a more modest wage and play opponents with far similar resources for the chance to compete to win a league title or a domestic cup. The writing was on the wall the day that Wigan won the FA cup but admitted that they'd have been better off losing the final but avoiding relegation. Football in England had become focused on retaining a place in the lucrative EPL at all costs, even if it meant forgoing the glory of winning the FA Cup.

                                                    Football will continue regardless of what happens with this breakaway league. It might not be football as we know it now. Thats not entirely a bad thing. The same fans will turn up to watch West Ham, Burnley, Preston or Forest. Whoever wins the top flight of English football will take their place in next season's European competition to play against the champions of Scotland, Belgium, Sweden or any other country. We'll all still love our clubs because of what they mean to us and love football for what it is. A European super league featuring the biggest teams in the continent playing in a closed shop isnt going to make fans love their club any less.

                                                    The reality is that this is just another readjustment in 30 years of readjustments. Every single change we've seen since 1991/92 has seen winners and losers in domestic and European competitions. If your team was a winner then few fans complained. Losers? Nobody was listening. Government certainly wasn't and UEFA were actively encouraging the top clubs to leave the rest behind, so long as they still had their grubby fingers in whatever pie they could get their mitts on. I'd not only sanction the move, I'd encourage it. If clubs want to form their own closed shop money league then let them. It doesnt change why I love my club or why I love football. I'd far rather the football authorities and government used this as a chance to look at football as a whole and to look at it's future than trying to desperately hold on to the current imbalanced model that benefits the few at the expense of the many.

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