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If England Had Qualified For The 1974 and 1978 World Cups

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    If England Had Qualified For The 1974 and 1978 World Cups

    I noted a few months ago that England would have been ranked around 4th in the world in both 74 and 78 had rankings existed then. This suggests they ought to have got out of the group stages had they qualified. Could they have reached the final with some lucky breaks and proven talents like Keegan (78)?

    I know that "but they didn't qualify" is an obvious response but Poland and Italy both finished in the Top 4, so you could argue that both qualifying draws were extremely lopsided relative to the strength of the teams (albeit Poland and Italy were still on the rise when the draw was made).

    My take: 1974 Ramsey was probably losing it and the top 3 were very strong indeed (all-time great sides). 1978 is a better chance, with no truly great side there and Keegan at his peak.
    Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 22-02-2021, 13:35.

    #2
    The junta would still have found a way to fix it in '78, I fear.

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      #3
      Well yes, England could have made the final - or they could have been drawn against Austria at the group stage and crashed out after finding even more ways to leave Bruno Pezzey unmarked at set pieces.

      Surely the point about late-70s England is that they were talented but inconsistent? This showed in the qualification campaigns of the day, and carried forward into Euro 80 and Spain 82. I suspect it'd have been more of the same in Argentina.
      Last edited by blameless; 22-02-2021, 16:42.

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        #4
        I think we'd have found some way of getting knocked out in the first phase in 1974. Probably much in the way that Italy did.

        1978 seems a more likely qualification to the next phase for England, since Hungary were not 'all that'. (On the other hand, that was a talented French team...) Whichever, the Dutch would've done us fairly routinely in Rd 2, however.

        (Obviously I'm working with the groups as they were drawn.)

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          #5
          The cooler weather* might have helped I suppose, like it did in 2010, (laughs hollowly).

          * Was it? I remember a rain-lashed game in 1974 but I've no idea what the weather was like generally. 1978 was during the Argentinan winter. Are they harsh?

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            #6
            England could genuinely have won in 1978, with a bit of luck in games during the finals. They only went out in qualifying on GD to Italy, who themselves were a whisker off winning. Holland who were a post away from winning weren't really all that as Archie Gemill showed. And Argentina ... well, they turned up at Wembley two years later with Maradona now in the team and we battered them.

            England did go into Euro 80 as genuine favourites before they cocked that up.

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              #7
              No one was winning in Argentina except Argentina, surely?

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                #8
                If we're changing history, Wales would've qualified for Argentina '78 as well.

                In the first group stage Wales would have underestimated Peru and only won 3-1, then they would have beaten Iran 3-2 and earned a 3-3 draw with Holland. In the second group stage Wales would have swotted aside W. Germany, France and Italy with clinical 2-1 victories, in the final a Mickey Thomas treble would have helped Wales beat Argentina 5-3 in the best World Cup Final ever seen.

                Wales would then have won the 1980 European Championships, made the second group stage in Espana '82, lost the Euro '84 final to W. Germany, hosted the 1986 World Cup after Colombia's withdrawal, withdrew from Euro '88 in a huff and then failed to qualify for anything else until Euro '96, where a historic 8-0 victory over England ,featuring a brace from Vinnie Jones, was the sole highlight.
                Last edited by Kowalski; 22-02-2021, 21:49.

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                  #9
                  Call the witness Berbaslug's Granny. Exhibit A: testicles...

                  England were hexed the moment that Alf Ramsey told an autograph hunting kid at Warsaw Airport to fuck off. "Don't worry son- he probably thinks you're Scottish" consoled my Dad

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                    #10
                    woulda,shoulda,coulda

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                      #11
                      I'm sure there was a book on the school library shelf where Iceland, Luxembourg and Zaire were world beaters. That's the kind of alternate reality I'm into.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View Post
                        England could genuinely have won in 1978, with a bit of luck in games during the finals. They only went out in qualifying on GD to Italy, who themselves were a whisker off winning. Holland who were a post away from winning weren't really all that as Archie Gemill showed. And Argentina ... well, they turned up at Wembley two years later with Maradona now in the team and we battered them.

                        England did go into Euro 80 as genuine favourites before they cocked that up.
                        Qualifying results mean little, though. Those games are played two years to nine months before the competition. On the day West-Germany beat Argentina 3-1 in Buenos Aires on 5 June 1977, England lost at home to Scotland.

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Greenlander View Post
                          I'm sure there was a book on the school library shelf where Iceland, Luxembourg and Zaire were world beaters. That's the kind of alternate reality I'm into.
                          It was this book. https://www.amazon.com/Warrior-Other.../dp/0140310134
                          I must have read it at least 3 times

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                            #14
                            That's the one where someone is killed/maimed by an incredibly heavy ball being substituted on isn't it?

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                              #15
                              If Scotland had qualified in 1978.........

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                                #16
                                If England had made the Finals in 1974, who would Ramsey have picked? My guess is a starting line up something like: Shilton; Storey, McFarland, Madeley, Hughes; Ball, Bell, Peters; Channon, Chivers, Clarke, with a bench comprising Parkes, Clemence, Moore (probably allowing sentiment to get the better of him- remember Nobby making the 1970 squad), Todd, Nish, Pejic, Hunter, Currie, MacDonald, Hector, Bowles. I don't really see that squad beating the West Germans or the Dutch, in all honesty. Nor the Poles.

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                                  #17
                                  Nor the East Germans.

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                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by ad hoc View Post

                                    It was this book. https://www.amazon.com/Warrior-Other.../dp/0140310134
                                    I must have read it at least 3 times
                                    $40, wow.

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                                      #19
                                      Or Scotland. Scotland beat England 2-0 in the home internationals in May 1974.

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                                        #20
                                        The team which beat Hungary 4-1 in May 1978 was:

                                        Shilton

                                        Neal
                                        Mills
                                        Watson
                                        Hughes (c)

                                        Coppell
                                        Wilkins
                                        Brooking
                                        Barnes (Peter)

                                        Francis
                                        Keegan

                                        The team which a few days earlier won 1-0 v Scotland, who were on the way to really shake them up in the Argentine, had Clemence for Shilton, Tony Currie for Brooking, and Mariner for Keegan. Greenhoff (B) was a sub along with Brooking.

                                        Looks decent enough to me but I don't really remember 1978 and only had radio.

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                                          #21
                                          Although it’s not much consolation, England absolutely dominated Poland in that 1974 Qualifier, but just couldn’t score more than once & then in one of the 2 or 3 attacks Poland had in the whole game 2 England players made mistakes & Poland scored.

                                          No team came even remotely close to dominating Poland in the Finals itself. Not sure how dominant Wales were when they beat Poland 2-0 in the same Qualifying Group earlier.

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                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by 1974ddr View Post
                                            If England had made the Finals in 1974, who would Ramsey have picked? My guess is a starting line up something like: Shilton; Storey, McFarland, Madeley, Hughes; Ball, Bell, Peters; Channon, Chivers, Clarke, with a bench comprising Parkes, Clemence, Moore (probably allowing sentiment to get the better of him- remember Nobby making the 1970 squad), Todd, Nish, Pejic, Hunter, Currie, MacDonald, Hector, Bowles. I don't really see that squad beating the West Germans or the Dutch, in all honesty. Nor the Poles.
                                            No, not world-beaters at all. Though I doubt Alf would have picked both Bowles and Currie, or if he had, Stan would have been sent home for any number of reasons (shoelaces undone), and Currie wouldn't have got on the pitch.

                                            But let's explore one path. England qualify in 1974, at Poland's expense. Ignoring any changes to pots and pools, let's put them in Poland's group with Italy and Argentina, and then eliminate them, perhaps on goal difference (would a pedestrian Alf Ramsey XI have beaten Italy or bothered scoring 7 against Haiti?). Or we can be generous and eliminate them at the second stage (no knockout games).

                                            So when does Alf lose his job? Nowadays it's common for a manager/coach to foreshadow their departure, and have a succession arranged, but that wasn't Alf's style, and the FA would never have forced him out before the tournament England had just qualified for.

                                            In reality, Revie was appointed in July 1974, but only after a long caretaker period (Joe Mercer). He - and the FA - had many months to consider replacing Ramsey. But in our alternative history, Ramsey's sacking in June/July 1974 is a shock ... if it happens at all (he was much too young to retire). Would the FA have moved overnight, to dump Ramsey and grab Revie? Unlikely. They never did anything without several committees and gin and tonics.

                                            So Revie stays at Leeds, Clough never goes there and one of footballs' great stories (books, films) never happens. Worse, Leeds win the European Cup. Tomaszewski, we are forever in your debt.

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                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by 3 Colours Red View Post
                                              The junta would still have found a way to fix it in '78, I fear.
                                              Not much they could have done if Resenbrink had scored.

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                                                #24
                                                ...then the nerdy kid at Elgin Academy* whose Mum bought him an "England WM '74" school bag (with the twin mascots on) wouldn't have felt quite so bad about it.

                                                *Morayshire, Scotland
                                                Last edited by Felicity, I guess so; 23-02-2021, 20:01.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Sporting View Post

                                                  Not much they could have done if Resenbrink had scored.
                                                  They would have just paid off the ref to give them a dodgy penalty or something.

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