Who will dethrone Liverpool in the desert? The belated 2020 World Club Cup

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Palmeiras get a week to celebrate their Libertadores triumph before flying to Qatar for the (2020) World Club Cup, which they have never won. Ironically, one of their proud boasts is that they claim to be the first ever "World Club Champions", having won the 1951 Copa Rio against the likes of Nacional, Vasco da Gama, Juventus, Austria Vienna, Sporting Lisbon, OGC Nice and Red Star Belgrade (Portsmouth's invite must have been lost in the post).

Whoever Palmeiras get in the semi-final will be the first hurdle. They will meet the winners of the game between Ulsan Hyundai and Tigres from Mexico. I've not seen a lot of the CONCACAF league last year but Ulsan looked quite a solid team in winning in Asia. In the old and early days of this competition it would be inconceivable that the champions of Brazil and South America would lose to anyone except the European champions, but is that still the case?

If Bayern Munich fail to get to the final against either Al-Ahly or local side Al-Duhail in the other semi then it would be the first ever such failure by the Champions League winners. Although Liverpool made very hard work of Monterrey last year, which makes me wonder about the potential Tigres-Palmeiras matchup this year.

[Capybara]

I'm surprised that the 2020 World Club Cup is even a thing. On second thoughts, no I'm not.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

It will be the first major test of two brand new stadiums and infrastructure that have been built for next year's World Cup finals. Both will hold 45,000 foreign fans for the first ... oh hang on.

[fatbear]

The South American champions have failed to reach the final 4 times since 2010, most recently in 2018, when Al Ain beat River Plate on penalties. Al Ain played three games to get to the final where they lost 1-4 to Real Madrid. TP Mazembe, Kashiwa Antlers and Raja Casablance have also eliminated South American teams.

Ulsan Hyundai weren't even the best team in South Korea, coming second behind Jeonbuk Hyundai Motors in the K-League. Junior Negrao, who scored 26 league goals last year and both goals in the AFC CL final win, is reportedly no longer with the club.

[VillanoXIV]

I always liked the Club World Cup. It’s clearly a shonky bit of razzle dazzle but as a week long tournament to follow, I enjoy it. Also the idea of “champions of the world” is just an inherently pleasing concept to me tbh.

[Capybara]

The idea of 'champions of the world because we could only finish fourth in our national league two years ago' is, perhaps, not quite so pleasing.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

The idea of 'champions of the world because we could only finish fourth in our national league two years ago' is, perhaps, not quite so pleasing.

National leagues have only been a qualifying tournament for the Continental title in almost every country in the world for about 30 years, now. "Top 4" and all that.

I for one certainly wouldn't even notice if Liverpool were champions of England. (Ahem, clears throat, settles back down in chair).

[Satchmo Distel]

At least it admits it's a Cup not a League, Championship or Conference.

There was also this Anglo-Scottish version:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Footba...d_Championship

[Wouter D]

The idea of 'champions of the world because we could only finish fourth in our national league two years ago' is, perhaps, not quite so pleasing.

Hardly the fault of the Club World Cup, though. If the Champions League were to actually be true to its own name, all would be in order.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Hardly the fault of the Club World Cup, though. If the Champions League were to actually be true to its own name, all would be in order.

Quite. Bit like criticizing World Cup winners who've lost in the group stage.

[Wouter D]

Quite. Bit like criticizing World Cup winners who've lost in the group stage.

I'll be dead in cold, cold ground before I recognize Spain as legitimate World Cup winners.

Losing to fucking Switzerland along the way, what the hell...

[ursus arctos]

The Dutch are forever pure in this respect

[tee rex]

No Oceania, so the winners will be forever asterisked*.

(Auckland City withdrew, because NZ government doesn't piss around with people returning from Covid jaunts).

[Wouter D]

The Dutch are forever pure in this respect

The irony isn't lost on me that the only tournament that the Netherlands ever won, was also won despite losing the opening match.

In hindsight it was all downhill with the format since the 1934 and 1938 world cup.

[Jah Womble]

I'll be dead in cold, cold ground before I recognize Spain as legitimate World Cup winners.

Losing to fucking Switzerland along the way, what the hell...

Ditto West Germany in 1954 and 1974. (Losing to Hungary - 8-(bloody)3 - and East Germany along the way, what the hell...etc.)

Also Argentina in 1978.

The only legitimate winners are Brazil - won all their games in 1970 (and 2002).

[Wouter D]

Ditto West Germany in 1954 and 1974. (Losing to Hungary - 8-(bloody)3 - and East Germany along the way, what the hell...etc.)

Also Argentina in 1978.

The only legitimate winners are Brazil - won all their games in 1970 (and 2002).

This discussion may have left the realm of the serious quite a while ago, but just for the record: 19 out of 21 World Cups were won without embarrassing defeats.

All but four (1954, 1974, 1978, 2010) were won without _any_ defeats. The 1978 loss was in a match to Italy that was basically a dead rubber (only determining the group winner), and the 1954 loss can be forgiven because that year's bonkers format was stacked heavily against West Germany (as it was stacked against all unseeded teams).

[Jah Womble]

As you say, the discussion left the realm of the serious some while back.

[fatbear]

All games available via the BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55738239

[Wouter D]

As you say, the discussion left the realm of the serious some while back.

One thing that I _am_ serious about, is how angry the 1954 world cup format makes me. As if mathematicians hadn't been invented yet, to talk some sense into tournament organizers. The 2/3 round robin with seeded and unseeded teams, the decision to put all group winners in one half of the knockout bracket and all runners-up in the other half, it is utterly ridiculous. If we would have to come up with a tournament format that is as unfair as possible, it would genuinely be hard to improve on this one.

[Southport Zeb]

One thing that I _am_ serious about, is how angry the 1954 world cup format makes me. As if mathematicians hadn't been invented yet, to talk some sense into tournament organizers. The 2/3 round robin with seeded and unseeded teams, the decision to put all group winners in one half of the knockout bracket and all runners-up in the other half, it is utterly ridiculous. If we would have to come up with a tournament format that is as unfair as possible, it would genuinely be hard to improve on this one.

Not to mention deciding on the seeded teams prior to qualification, with Spain amongst the seeded teams. They were then drawn into a qualifying group with only one other side, Turkey. Spain won 4-1in Madrid but were then beaten 1-0 in Istanbul. You'd think that this would mean a 4-2 aggregate win for Spain, but instead both sides were ranked equal in the "group" with two points each. Goal difference was not considered, so they met for a third team, in Rome, with the result being a draw after extra time. To finally determine who was going to Switzerland, the son of a stadium worker was blindfolded and asked to pick a name from a hat. He chose Turkey and so they became one of the seeded teams at the finals.

Another oddity was playing extra time for drawn group games.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

It will be Tigres UANL through to face Palmeiras in the semis, they've beaten Ulsan Hyundai 2-1. Monterrey, their big local rivals, were the ones who only lost to Liverpool in injury time last year.

[ursus arctos]

Al Ahly 2-0 up against the Qatari champions in the other match

Edit: 1-0, as their second was called back for a very tight offside

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I'll be dead in cold, cold ground before I recognize Spain as legitimate World Cup winners.

Losing to fucking Switzerland along the way, what the hell...

Do you want us to spend more time thinking about that final Mr Dutchman?

[Wouter D]

Do you want us to spend more time thinking about that final Mr Dutchman?

I'll be the first to concede that two or three Dutchmen should have been sent off in that first half alone. But that's a completely distinct point.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Hahahaha