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VAR: offside and hand balls

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    #26
    Originally posted by DPDPDPDP View Post

    I’m also pro var, but make it easier on the var-man to reach a decision quickly and easy by sensibly modifying the offside and handball laws.
    This was my point above, so I agree. Haha. I think that giving coaches opportunities to make X number of challenges would mean less VAR scenarios but probably longer wait times. My feeling is (again) just follow the offside law as it exists (per the posts above). Only goal-scoring body parts are used to assess if a player is offside. And if VAR can't see something different on the field in 25-30 seconds then the play on the field stands. We shouldn't be waiting for a lengthy period of time unless there are multiple plays to consider (e.g., I think this happened during Everton-Wolves mid-week, where there was a possible offside and two possible fouls, if I remember correctly).

    I will say that it seems like they have become more sensible with the handball situation as the season has progressed. This past week alone there were 4 or 5 shouts for handballs between the FA Cup and the mid-week EPL matches and none were called because the players were too close. There was no way a guy could move his arm. I'm in favor of that kind of refereeing.

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      #27
      Originally posted by Duncan Gardner View Post
      I know it's probably flogging a dead horse, but is there any possibility of trying the variant used in other sports? Rather than a fourth official referring decisions to the referee, give the teams a fixed number of challenges per game...
      But the point of it isn't to allow teams to challenge referees decisions if they get the hump, it's to reduce (not eliminate) errors made by referees, for its own sake. Also People The overwhelming majority of communications between the VAR and the ref are "You got that one spot on, well done." Also how would managers know when to make an appeal? In all but a limited number of cases, they have a worse viewing angle of an incident than the ref..

      Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
      That aside your point is valid, aside from the fact that you've missed out the obvious problem with VAR in that it involves stopping a game (often for minutes) which is supposed to flow. Even if these judgments from the bunker were 100% correct (they;re not, but let;s just imagine) the damage to the game itself is not worth it. It's a crying shame.
      What's this about the game being supposed to flow? It's only relatively recently that the average number of minutes played per game crept up to over the 50 minutes a game mark. It's been 55 minutes in the average PL game over the last decade. which means that the ball is dead for 41 minutes in the average premier league game. The game may be meant to flow, but in practice there are always long pauses. It's just that you're used to them. you're not used to VAR. An average length bout of physio treatment for an injury is longer than a long VAR pause, and the length of time taken up by VAR checks for penalties and the likes, have to be set against people no longer spending 30-40 seconds shouting at the ref after the award of a penalty. I used to get pissed off by players arguing with the ref when there's no prospect of him changing his mind, so I really notice that it barely happens any more, and get wound up by it when I see just how much of pre-Var games was given over to this.

      Originally posted by DPDPDPDP View Post
      I’m also pro var, but make it easier on the var-man to reach a decision quickly and easy by sensibly modifying the offside and handball laws.
      No matter how you change the offside rule though, the VAR is still going to have to judge where a player was, relative to the last opponent when the ball was played. Changing the margins may well change a number of offside decisions, but it doesn't change the process for determining offside, i

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        #28
        The ball is dead when the ball is dead. With VAR sometimes the ball is seemingly in play before you find out that in fact all that action you've just been watching effectively didn't happen.

        Seriously I get that you like it and for you it enhances the game. Can you not accept that for some of us it's awful and ruins the spectacle? In general top flight football now, with both VAR and no crowds, feels completely alien and without any form of soul. I have as much interest in watching it as I would watching a pro evo competition.

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          #29
          The Awesome Berbaslug!!! I'm suggesting that the point/ benefit of VAR should be to reduce the most significant errors by allowing teams that fixed number of incorrect challenges. As there are typically only 2 or 3 goals in a game and sendings off are rare, that fixed numver need only be 2.

          I've explained above how the coach can quickly be contacted with the signal to challenge

          On your frivolous challenges point- in cricket, if the fielding captain wastes such challenges, he probably won't stay captain for long. Stuart Broad, for example

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            #30
            The Spurs-Liverpool game had another kind of stunner for me that relates to why referees don't look at the context of a call. I get that in this game on Thursday I have a horse in the race so I'm going to see the call in a certain way. But the VAR call to remove Salah's goal was shocking to me. I get that Firmino handled the ball but that handball has to be read in context and I'd be curious to hear from folks who referee games. First, Dier was all over Firmino. It would seem that the first foul would be Dier against Firmino, which would mean the ref either calls a foul or plays the advantage. Second, the ball actually hits Dier's arm, which is also in an unnatural position because that arm is draped wrapped around Firmino. Then after the ball bounces off Dier's arm it hits Firmino's arm, but Firmino's arm is outstretched because Firmino is trying to get Dier off of him. I linked a video and it's the only one I can find, but for some idiotic reason the video is a reversed mirror image. Either way, you can see the play at 22ish seconds.



            For me, if Firmino handled the ball in this way without Dier trying to have a cuddle, I'd say handball for sure but there's no way Firmino could do anything else with his arm.

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              #31
              Long discussion on this on the Premier League thread. But essentially only Firmino’s actions were reviewable because VAR is limited to be used on goals, penalties and red cards. As Spurs were not doing any of these things, the referees real-time decisions on Dier’s actions could not (should not) be reversed by VAR.

              As for whether Firmino could do anything else with his arm, that comes down to intent. Which is no longer part of the law. His arm is away from his body, the ball hits it, and he benefits. It’s therefore a very straightforward call that it’s handball. That is why it only took the ref one look at the replay to make the new decision.

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                #32
                So by that token if a player snuck up behind another player in the box, grabbed his arm and put it in the way of the ball, that would be a penalty? And the foul wouldn't matter?

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                  #33
                  I went back to look at that thread, Janik, after seeing your posts. And I agree with almost everything you say in those posts. First, the ref needs to start with possession, so if possession changes then that's the new VAR starting point. Second, the ref can't go back 20 touches. Again, the area that I would disagree with you has to do with is how the ball hits the arm. Again, I get the intent move. That's gone. Makes sense, since it's impossible to gauge intent. But the refs have changed this year related to proximity. They have stopped calling ridiculous penalties where an attacking player blasts the ball into the defenders arm (purposefully or not) but there is no way humanly possible for that defender to move his arm. I would say that the same scenario is comparable here. Dier is pulling on Firmino to the point that Firmino can't control where his arm is located related to the ball. It seems like intent is gone but "natural" and "unnatural" position is still used by refs. Unnatural can't be applicable when Dier is pulling Firmino.

                  At the end of the day, it's moot since my claims aren't going to change the outcome of that goal haha and Liverpool won the game so this was not a game-changing call. It just seem ridiculous that context is not considered when VAR is used. I remember a call in a Libertadores game where a Corinthians player pushed a Nacional player, that Nacional player knocked over another Corinthians player in the box and the ref called a penalty against Nacional. It was insane. This one seems similar.

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                    #34
                    Of course, trusting that the ex-footballers who do analysis on games is a fool's errand. They have a lot of opinions, most of which emerge from no clear understanding of the actual laws of the game. Still, I am currently watching Bournemouth-Southampton and it seems like Southampton had a goal ruled off because the attacking player's torso was offside. The same thing happened in the Fulham-Leeds game against Leeds (yet again) as far as I can tell. It seemed like this issue had been solved for a couple months. Perhaps it is just how the TV networks are drawing the lines and the VAR refs have different angles, but these calls are irritants even when I don't have any horses in the race.

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