Champions League knock out stage

[Kowalski]

I watched a bunch of old european matches during the first lockdown, and I've got to say lads, I'm not feeing the nostalgia for the old European cup format. A bunch of national champions from highly dubious regimes, playing matches where the standard of refereeing is so bad that it's difficult to figure out what is matchfixing and what is simply an appalling mistake. I mean the only merit I can see in it other than "That's the way it was when I were a lad" is that it must have had a tremendous sense of mystery, given that hardly anyone saw these games.

For reference, the first european cup final I can remember in detail is Silvio Berlusconi 4 0 the Securitate I also remember Madjer's backheel, but I don't know if that is a memory of seeing it live, or just seeing the goal. And I know I watched a chunk of the 88 final in the Abbey Tavern, but nothing happened in the first 120 minutes in that game.

Yeah but there was no such thing as Lawn Sport Leipzig back then.

[Third rate Leszno]

The English representative in the Europa Conference league is supposed to be the league cup winners, though I'm not sure whether it goes to the runner-up or a league placing if the winner has already qualified for a higher European competition.

[Snake Plissken]

League placing.

[G-Man]

In an ideal world, UEFA and FIFA would tell the Bayerns, Reals, Juves, Man Utds, PSG et al to go form their Super League. But all clubs that joins will be barred from UEFA leagues, and players who signs for them will not be licensed for UEFA or FIFA competitions (including the World Cup). There would be a split in football, but at least these oligarchs wouldn't hold football's feet to the fire whenever they want to squeeze more blood from the stone. But one look at Infantino and the UEFA guy, and you know their inaction is predicated not on spinelessness but on being servants of the oligarchy.

In an ideal world, there'd also be justice and peace everywhere.

[Diable Rouge]

And right on cue, European Super League stories have re-emerged - mind you, playing in both a domestic league and 23 mid-week games seems rather fanciful, to put it mildly.

[Mr Beast]

Some super league it’ll be if fucking dross like Arsenal are going to be in it. Let them go, but they don’t come back.

[Kowalski]

A statement.

UEFA, the English Football Association and the Premier League, the Royal Spanish Football Federation (RFEF) and LaLiga, and the Italian Football Federation (FIGC) and Lega Serie A have learned that a few English, Spanish and Italian clubs may be planning to announce their creation of a closed, so-called Super League.

If this were to happen, we wish to reiterate that we – UEFA, the English FA, RFEF, FIGC, the Premier League, LaLiga, Lega Serie A, but also FIFA and all our member associations - will remain united in our efforts to stop this cynical project, a project that is founded on the self-interest of a few clubs at a time when society needs solidarity more than ever.

We will consider all measures available to us, at all levels, both judicial and sporting in order to prevent this happening. Football is based on open competitions and sporting merit; it cannot be any other way.

As previously announced by FIFA and the six Federations, the clubs concerned will be banned from playing in any other competition at domestic, European or world level, and their players could be denied the opportunity to represent their national teams.

We thank those clubs in other countries, especially the French and German clubs, who have refused to sign up to this. We call on all lovers of football, supporters and politicians, to join us in fighting against such a project if it were to be announced. This persistent self-interest of a few has been going on for too long. Enough is enough.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

On a point of order, "German and French clubs" haven't "refused to sign up" to anything, it's just that in the case of the German two they need to have a shareholder meeting before they can confirm that the extra 2% of their shareholding supporters would sign up, and in PSG's case (and Man City's) the owners are simply biding their time, but will inexorably follow which way the money goes.

[ale]

In an ideal world, UEFA and FIFA would tell the Bayerns, Reals, Juves, Man Utds, PSG et al to go form their Super League. But all clubs that joins will be barred from UEFA leagues, and players who signs for them will not be licensed for UEFA or FIFA competitions (including the World Cup). There would be a split in football, but at least these oligarchs wouldn't hold football's feet to the fire whenever they want to squeeze more blood from the stone. But one look at Infantino and the UEFA guy, and you know their inaction is predicated not on spinelessness but on being servants of the oligarchy.

In an ideal world, there'd also be justice and peace everywhere.

This is it. EUFA & FIFA have so far been the last people you would invest in hopes of a sporting meritocracy. But they still hold the ultimate advantage of granting participation in tournaments that matter most to players. Not clubs. Who currently provide access to World Cups etc. But if they didnt however far fetched it seems at present remove.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Yeah but there was no such thing as Lawn Sport Leipzig back then.

No but you had dynamo berlin, and they were massively worse. They were literally the team of the Stasi

Yes Red Bull are horrible, but that doesn't mean that things in the past weren't worse.

[Kowalski]

No but you had dynamo berlin, and they were massively worse. They were literally the team of the Stasi

Yes Red Bull are horrible, but that doesn't mean that things in the past weren't worse.

There are plenty of examples that show football wasn't so golden in the pre-champions league "golden age" - Red Star Belgrade ultras becoming soldiers in Bosnia and Beria being patron of Dynamo Moscow being just two - but Celtic, Forest, Villa and Hamburg were champions of Europe so European football had some palatable qualities before 1992.

If the price of a post 1989 Europe (the end of truly repressive regimes in Europe and outright present based corruption in UEFA competitions) is the concentration of wealth in 15-25 football clubs then it might be worth it from a human rights / moral perspective but football didn't need to follow the path it has followed. For example one of the recommendations of the Taylor Report was keeping ticket prices relatively low.

Football didn't need business visionaries and their Thatcherite ethics, football didn't need a champions league, 100 quid tickets or broadcasting contracts worth billions because football would still exist today. Having said that British society didn't need Thatcherism in the '80s either.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

There are plenty of examples that show football wasn't so golden in the pre-champions league "golden age" - Red Star Belgrade ultras becoming soldiers in Bosnia and Beria being patron of Dynamo Moscow being just two - but Celtic, Forest, Villa and Hamburg were champions of Europe so European football had some palatable qualities before 1992.

If the price of a post 1989 Europe (the end of truly repressive regimes in Europe and outright present based corruption in UEFA competitions) is the concentration of wealth in 15-25 football clubs then it might be worth it from a human rights / moral perspective but football didn't need to follow the path it has followed. For example one of the recommendations of the Taylor Report was keeping ticket prices relatively low.

Football didn't need business visionaries and their Thatcherite ethics, football didn't a champions league, 100 quid tickets or broadcasting contracts worth billions because football would still exist today. Having said that British society didn't need Thatcherism in the '80s either.

And Liverpool. Ahem. Paisley's Liverpool. Forest were the ones bunging millions of pounds around on players to score them European Cup winning goals, iirc. Not us. Not then.

[Kowalski]

And United, they didn't pay much for Law, Best and Charlton.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

I think they smashed the British transfer record to buy Denis Law from Torino, but okay if that's what you believed.

[ale]

And Liverpool. Ahem. Paisley's Liverpool. Forest were the ones bunging millions of pounds around on players to score them European Cup winning goals, iirc. Not us. Not then.

At risk of being held hostage to fortune but am sure the Forest team that won European Cup in 1979 will have cost less than the Liverpool team of that season. Trevor Francis or not.

[ursus arctos]

It probably is close

Daglish, Souness and McDermott cost an aggregate of less than 100K more than Francis alone

[Kowalski]

I think they smashed the British transfer record to buy Denis Law from Torino, but okay if that's what you believed.

Well Law, Best & Charlton cost 35 grand each as an average then, as a slight aside 7 of the starting XI in the 1968 European Cup Final came through the United youth system.

[jwdd27]

Rough calculations here suggest Forest just less than 1.5m, Liverpool just over 1.7m (based on Forest's starting XI in the final, and Liverpool's XI against Forest in the first round (obviously Forest were then without Francis).

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Well Law, Best & Charlton cost 35 grand each as an average then, as a slight aside 7 of the starting XI in the 1968 European Cup Final came through the United youth system.

Yeah let's best not get started on the fabled "United youth system" that basically just hoovered up every decent youth player in the entire United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland up to the age of 16 in the good old days. From Bobby Charlton and George Best, to Lee Sharpe, David Beckham and Ryan Giggs. Born and bred Mancunians, the lot of them.

Rashford at the moment though, he's apparently from somewhere I know well, Northenden. Maybe even passed his mum and smiled while he was in his pushchair, while I took the Roginettes to the park. He's about my daughters' age. United are rightly proud of him.

[Satchmo Distel]

Did we establish on the European Cup history thread that Celtic were the only truly 'local' winners ever? The Busby Babes, had they won it, would have been less costly than the 1968 side but they still paid 29,999 quid for Tommy Taylor in 1953, when the record was 34,500.

Liverpool, to be fair, had raised 500,000 by selling Keegan.

[ursus arctos]

Most local definitely

Steaua and Red Star likely have the podium places

Steaua are almost certainly the "least expensive" because of all the "non-cash considerations" involved

[Uncle Ethan]

The UEFA Cup was magnificent. Real Madrid, Lazio, Barcelona, Locomotiv Leipzig, St Etienne, Cologne, Twente Enschede, Widzew Lodz, among others provided some wonderful nights - some of the most evocative and enjoyable games I've ever been to.

[ursus arctos]

Not to mention your lot

[Uncle Ethan]

Yeah, they did okay occasionally.

[ursus arctos]

I have long thought that much of the nostalgia for "magic European nights" among our cohort really centered on the UEFA Cup rather than the one with big ears