Players out of their time

[Tactical Genius]

A spin off from the Maradona thread regarding how great players of yore would fare in the Modern game and vice versa. This is my take.

Strikers from the past would have a field day, the flat pitches, protection from referees, the lax offside rules. Pele, Puskas, Di Stefano, Gert Muller, Greaves and Eusabio would be just as successful now as they were in their era. Even the big old school Centre forwards like Charles, Hunt, Bobby Smith would be successful in the modern game (see Crouch, Drogba, Diego Costa and a fit Andy Carrol for reference).

Wingers from the past may have to adjust their game somewhat (play more inside or become inverted) But the ability to beat a man is such a rare gift, the likes of Finney and Matthews will be fine. Aaron Lennon and Gareth Bale (2010-2012 vintage) are good modern examples. and the goalscoring wingers like Cliff Jones, George Best, Garrincha and Jairzinho will presumably be at least as successful as the likes of Robben, Ribery, Sane and Sterling.

More later.........

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

A spin off from the Maradona thread regarding how great players of yore would fare in the Modern game and vice versa. This is my take.

Strikers from the past would have a field day, the flat pitches, protection from referees, the lax offside rules. Pele, Puskas, Di Stefano, Gert Muller, Greaves and Eusabio would be just as successful now as they were in their era. Even the big old school Centre forwards like Charles, Hunt, Bobby Smith would be successful in the modern game (see Crouch, Drogba, Diego Costa and a fit Andy Carrol for reference).

Wingers from the past may have to adjust their game somewhat (play more inside or become inverted) But the ability to beat a man is such a rare gift, the likes of Finney and Matthews will be fine. Aaron Lennon and Gareth Bale (2010-2012 vintage) are good modern examples. and the goalscoring wingers like Cliff Jones, George Best, Garrincha and Jairzinho will presumably be at least as successful as the likes of Robben, Ribery, Sane and Sterling.

More later.........

How many of that legendary set of strikers could get from the halfway line to the box in three seconds flat ten times a half? Sixties football was played a lot further up and around and all over the pitch than the modern game. Geoff Hurst barely left the edge of the West German penalty area in the whole 1966 World Cup final, except for that iconic final goal where the entire German team were up looking for an equaliser.

[Tactical Genius]

How many of that legendary set of strikers could get from the halfway line to the box in three seconds flat ten times a half? Sixties football was played a lot further up and around and all over the pitch than the modern game. Geoff Hurst barely left the edge of the West German penalty area in the whole 1966 World Cup final, except for that iconic final goal where the entire German team were up looking for an equaliser.

No human being can run from the half way line to the edge of the penalty area in 3 seconds flat let alone a professional footballer regardless of what those Sky pundits with their screens and fancy graphics tell you.

[elguapo4]

Conversations like this always depend on whether you say that for example Nobby Stiles was born in 1998, or whether he arrived in aged 22 in a time machine from the mid sixties.

If the former, he would be as fit as anyone else, and would play a different style of game, if the latter, he'd probably get sent off early in the game.

[Tactical Genius]

Conversations like this always depend on whether you say that for example Nobby Stiles was born in 1998, or whether he arrived in aged 22 in a time machine from the mid sixties.

If the former, he would be as fit as anyone else, and would play a different style of game, if the latter, he'd probably get sent off early in the game.

I'm not sure sure that would make a big difference. Making a footballer fitter is actually pretty easy, he was super fit by 1960's standards so if you gave him a modern pre season he would be fine. See the effect a modern training plan had on the mid 90's Arsenal team when Wenger came through the door. His biggest issue (like all defensive players from the past) would be the modern interpretation of what is and isn't a good tackle.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

No human being can run from the half way line to the edge of the penalty area in 3 seconds flat let alone a professional footballer regardless of what those Sky pundits with their screens and fancy graphics tell you

"Who ya gonna believe, Me or your own lying eyes?"

[Tactical Genius]

"Who ya gonna believe, Me or your own lying eyes?"

Don't listen to either, use science.

I'll give you some hints:

The distance from the half way line to the edge of the penalty area is approximately 35M
The world record for the mens 60M is 6.34 seconds
Take into account the slowest part of the race is the first 30M....

So unless you are going to make an argument Raheem Sterling and Kylian Mbappe are about half a second faster over 35 metres on a football pitch wearing boots than Christian Coleman on a running track wearing spikes and a starting block.............

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Who says they're starting from a standing start on the halfway line? There are players in the premier league who run at goal from 70 yards out.

[Tactical Genius]

Who says they're starting from a standing start on the halfway line? There are players in the premier league who run at goal from 70 yards out.

70 yards is approximately 60 m (give or take a few M). They would still be below world record pace to cover the final 35M in three seconds?

[Satchmo Distel]

Pele was very quick (see the 1970 dummy) so I don't think he'd have any trouble. Malcolm McDonald ran 10.9 seconds for 100m in Superstars. Best and Eusebio were also quick. I think Bobby Moore would be fine at the back but players who depended on giving out "reducers" would be red carded every week and probably be unable to adapt (Tommy Smith for example).

A more problematic question is whether current players whose techniques rely on perfect surfaces and referee protection could cope on 60s quagmires against someone like Stiles or Dave Mackay. I think some would be OK (Sterling looks very solid, for example) but some would be running back to the time machine.

[Diable Rouge]

The likes of Best or Cruyff would be the closest analogies in that era to Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo, so the latter two would probably be able to withstand the hacking tackles and boggy surfaces of that era. As has been argued, skill would probably prevail in both eras, as getting the older group up to modern fitness wouldn't be an insurmountable challenge, it's the intermediate rank footballers largely employed to make up squad numbers in both eras who would find the transition most difficult.

[Amor de Cosmos]

Of my era's great QPR players, Stan and Dave Thomas would have done fine, Rodney not so well. He had exceptional ball control and an excellent shot but was slower than a Covid Sunday. Gerry Francis didn't have great wheels either, but his vision and passing ability would have been enough for a good career, maybe not the England captaincy though.

[ChrisJ]

Good thread.

All good shouts from TG. I'd also be looking at midfielders with standout passing, tactical and technical ability. Gunther Netzer would be a good example. Ossie Ardiles, Terry McDermott, Billy Bremner if he could adapt to the tackle rules.

The discussion is pointless unless you assume that the player from the past would have access to modern training, nutrition etc, as I said on the Maradonna thread, so I would start from the point that Jessie Lingard is not better than Diego. OTOH, slow players from the past would really struggle in the modern game. Would Jan Molby's exceptional reading of the game and passing find a place now? Also the 6-yard box strikers. It's unfair to suggest that was all there was to their game, but I'm not sure players like Gerd Mueller or Alan Clarke would have the all-round game needed now. G-Man might have seen more than I did. Peter Osgood would flourish.

Defenders is harder for the reasons you identify, but Paolo Maldini, John Charles or Franco Baresi would be greats in any era. (IMHO)

[Satchmo Distel]

In the Maradona documentary, he discusses having to increase his speed in Serie A while retaining his skills. He was significantly quicker by 1986 than in 1982. That's an example of a great player adapting in just one season to a different, faster game.

[Greenlander]

I'd be interested how the great goalkeepers from the past would fare too. Taking just a random selection of international greats Yashin, Banks, Zoff, Maier and Jennings how would they cope with the modern lightweight balls, their tendency to swerve, wobble and bend in flight and the decrease in reaction times. But most importantly the requirement to use their feet. Stepping out of that time machine and seeing the ball coming back to them from a defender and a forward closing them down I'm imagining a number of indirect free kicks, corners and very attacking throw-ins ensuing.

Of all positions goalkeeping seems to have a clear demarcation line brought about by the back pass rule. Shilton was in his 40s and obviously way past his best when he joined us, but seemed unwilling or unable to adjust to the rule and rightly handed the gloves to Alan Nicholls (RIP kid - what a talent, what a waste) who would think nothing of taking the ball on either foot and then selling a dummy before clearing the ball.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

I watched the full match of the 1979 Cup Final when the BBC started showing "classic matches" in first lockdown, and it was really noticeable how rarely either Jennings or Bailey left their goalline, never mind their six yard box.

[multipleman78]

I will just copy and paste what I said on the Diego thread.

Champion players of the past would be champion players now because of their mental fortitude. That's what sport comes down to at the elite level.

Talent gets you to the dance but, and i am paraphrashing Sean Connery here, it's what is between the ears that determines if you go home and fuck the prom king or queen.

Maradona had enough demons to derail any career even before it's peak but his mentality meant he was strong enough to cope long enough to be a legend.

[Sporting]

I watched the full match of the 1979 Cup Final when the BBC started showing "classic matches" in first lockdown, and it was really noticeable how rarely either Jennings or Bailey left their goalline, never mind their six yard box.

When punting the ball out from hand, very few would take advantage of the whole area.

[elguapo4]

Keepers were only allowed four steps, so they had to play the ball from where they caught it.

[Sporting]

When did the four step rule come into force?

[elguapo4]

Don't know,but it was in force when I was playing in the 80s.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

This wasn't about coming out to clear the ball though, this was during open play - they'd just stand and wait in the goalmouth, to see what happened as attackers ran in on their defenders. Was it Schmeichel who was England's first introduction to the "sweeper-keeper"?

[Satchmo Distel]

Jennings was done by a swerver from Josimar in 1986, of course, and left looking like a total pilchard. The game had already passed him by, at least as played by Brazil 1982-86 (see also Alan Rough watching free kicks sail in from Cubillas 78 and Zico 82).

I do, however, think that a decent keeper could adapt to the back-pass rule as there were obviously keepers who did OK in both eras. But could any of them play as Neuer does or does that approach take years to develop (and he still occasionally fucks it up of course, as in the 2014 final when he dodged a red card)?

[elguapo4]

Jennings was 41 and was only playing because Northern Ireland didn't have anyone else.

Part of Jack Charlton's plan was that he knew that his first choice central defence pairing of Mc Carthy and Moran were slow, so he wanted Bonner to play Sweeper Keeper behind them, a position that Bonner wasn't suited for. The USSR equaliser in Euro 88 is one that comes to mind

[ChrisJ]

In the Maradona documentary, he discusses having to increase his speed in Serie A while retaining his skills. He was significantly quicker by 1986 than in 1982. That's an example of a great player adapting in just one season to a different, faster game.

Interesting, ta. I have the documentary recorded but not had time to watch it. I'd still suggest there might be a difference in degree between speeding up Maradonna and Molby. <laffin' face thing.>

Re: goalies, I was thinking about posting on that. Jumping, diving, catching etc are much the same and use of the area is a coaching thing, so you can adapt to that. I reckon distribution and use of feet would be the key aspect here. Saw Neville Southall play for Torquay at Shrewsbury when he was about 40-odd (years and possibly stone) and he completely dominated the game, dictating so much play from his area because he saw everything. He'd be good.

Gordon Banks once gave away a free kick and a winning goal playing for Stoke v Liverpool because he took 5 steps with the ball. I genuinely can't remember how good his distribution was generally.

Don't want to disrupt the thread but I also started wondering about coaches when we're bored with players.