Adios Diego

[Tactical Genius]

This only matters if the ball is out of the reach of the smaller player. Shilton was doing exactly what he needed to do to punch the ball away, right up until maradona flicked the ball over him with his had, which is unforeseeable.

Shilton is an arsehole, but there's no need to gild the lily with sloppy thinking.

Maradona's fist was about four inches above his head when he touched it. Shilton didn't jump.

[DCI Harry Batt]

If you look at the video, the handball was not as obvious as people made out afterwards and the initial complaint was the goal was offside (incorrectly). Listen to the TV commentary. They initially thought the players were claiming offside. It was really poor goalkeeping from Shilton who was slow off his line and slow jumping.

Absolutely it was terrible goalkeeping, agreed. But the only person who thought the players were appealing for offside was the knobhead doing the commentary.

[DPDPDPDP]

DCI Harry Batt too. Yep, I was there. Wasn’t very clear, was I? I’m guessing plenty of my fellow Old Farts on here saw the match live on the telly.

The 80s (my 20s) was the decade I pushed the boat out on attending football matches. As well as the 82 and 86 World Cups, also went to the Euro 88 tournament in Germany. And ticked off the 92 - at a time it was easy to just rock up and pay on the gate just about anywhere for any game. Not done any Intl tournaments since (apart from an odd game or two), and also not bothered to keep my 92 Club membership updated due to all the new stadia and a few new EFL members I’ve not visited. So it goes.

Slackster, it must have been brilliant to be there. I was in Cape Town, South Africa with a client for, ahem, work in June 2010. Saw three matches. What a great experience. You should have brought your boots and shin pads in 1986 and let it be known that you were available for selection. After all, if Terry Fenwick can get a game for England......

[Satchmo Distel]

It must have been London bias that got Fenwick into the team. Were there really no better centre backs outside the captal?

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Maradona's fist was about four inches above his head when he touched it. Shilton didn't jump.

This isn't relevant though. Shilton jumped as high as he needed to to punch the ball. which he would have done if maradona didn't use his own hand. why would you expect him to jump higher that's not where the ball was going to be. . Shilton's entire set of actions are based on the trajectory of the ball, and the assumption that maradona isn't going to suddenly punch the ball over his head, and then get away with it. This is victim blaming, because the victim is a cunt.

[Sean of the Shed]

This isn't relevant though. Shilton jumped as high as he needed to to punch the ball. which he would have done if maradona didn't use his own hand. why would you expect him to jump higher that's not where the ball was going to be. . Shilton's entire set of actions are based on the trajectory of the ball, and the assumption that maradona isn't going to suddenly punch the ball over his head, and then get away with it. This is victim blaming, because the victim is a cunt.

Precisely. You blame Shilton for not predicting that his opponent would flount the laws of the game to beat him, even if he is a full gammon joint smeared in English mustard.
If you are going to ridicule Shilton for costing England progression in a World Cup then that would be four years later when he might as well have leaned against the post at the side of the goal for all the good he did in the semi-final penalty shoot-out. And that was a far more likely "might-have-been" than Mexico was.

[jwdd27]

Shilton only needed a tiny injection of pace/alertness and he could have caught the ball, and with a tiny bit more athleticism he could have brought his knees up and clattered Diego as well (although Diego would have seen it was keeper's ball and most likely not gone for it).
Yes, he got cheated, but it was his poor play which presented the opportunity.

[jwdd27]

Precisely. You blame Shilton for not predicting that his opponent would flount the laws of the game to beat him, even if he is a full gammon joint smeared in English mustard.
If you are going to ridicule Shilton for costing England progression in a World Cup then that would be four years later when he might as well have leaned against the post at the side of the goal for all the good he did in the semi-final penalty shoot-out. And that was a far more likely "might-have-been" than Mexico was.

Don't forget he cost us participation in 1974 as well. 3 nailed on World Cups he's lost us.

[ChrisJ]

Woah, that is still pretty amazing though.

Nah. Those times were seriously slow by modern standards and the stroke was barely recognisable. But if they'd had even the rudimentary coaching I had, they'd have left me wallowing.

[Patrick Thistle]

It must have been London bias that got Fenwick into the team. Were there really no better centre backs outside the captal?

They were playing for Wales and Scotland

[elguapo4]

And Ireland.

[jwdd27]

Mark Wright would have been a decent non-London alternative to Fenwick and was ahead of him (and Alvin Martin) in the pecking order, but broke his leg in the FA Cup semi final, so missed out.
Otherwise there was the Norwich Dave Watson and the multi-trophy winning but uncapped Derek Mountfield, with the likes of Des Walker and Gary Pallister still to emerge.

[Foot of Astaire's]

They were playing for Wales and Scotland

I can remember a couple of outstanding Scottish centre halves in the mid 80s. Who were the Welsh ones?

[Patrick Thistle]

Liverpool and Everton were the top teams at the time. Liverpool's centre halfs were Scottish and Everton's were Welsh*.

*played for Wales, at least

[Jah Womble]

Don't forget he cost us participation in 1974 as well. 3 nailed on World Cups he's lost us.

Not sure Shilton can be held entirely accountable for that: yes, he let Domarski’s shot go under him, but it was Hunter who presented the opportunity. (Just as Bobby Moore - who’d been dropped in his favour - had gifted Lubanski a decisive second in Chorzow a few months earlier.) And that’s before you get to the ‘fearsome’ England forward line that couldn’t manage a goal in open play...

[Foot of Astaire's]

Liverpool and Everton were the top teams at the time. Liverpool's centre halfs were Scottish and Everton's were Welsh*.

*played for Wales, at least

Apologies, I'd forgotten both of them played for Wales and yes, they were both superior to Fenwick.

[Satchmo Distel]

I'm about 30 minutes into the documentary (paused it at the interviews with girlfriends). Three observations:

1. He was facially very attractive at 23. Boyish charm and naturally shy. But you see the photos of his dad and you can see fat Diego clearly foreshadowed.

2. Kicking the keeper in the head was a criminal act. Could easily have killed him. Any inquest into the negative aspects of his character should start there.

3. The Italian journalist says Diego was not a good jumper, which makes Shilton's attempt even more lame.

On Shilton 1986, I recall Ray Clemence's golden rule that you catch the ball at its highest point. Clemence would have got there (as would Southall). I think Diego was amazed that Shilton hadn't grabbed it.

[Various Artist]

Well we know Diego was a good jumper according to other goals linked to in this thread, but then perhaps Shilton was unaware and must've thought himself easy favourite to get contact to the ball first given the 8-inch height advantage he has, so fatally underestimated how much he needed to do.

It's not an amazing leap for the Hand of God goal, certainly, but then again it didn't really have to be. Shilton's other main fault was probably to be caught a tad flat-footed in coming forward off his line for the high ball: he is seemingly taken by surprise by the parabola of Hodge's(?) accidental looping volley back towards his own penalty spot, presumably expecting the ball to come through on the ground. Whereas Maradona has already sliced straight through the press of players at the edge of the area after the give-and-go to Valdano, so arrives with much greater momentum as it drops, completely unchallenged by anyone apart from Shilton.

And then, given that he went so early he'd have been well offside (according to the camera angle, at least) had the ball actually come in off an Argentinean player, perhaps that's also why Shilton didn't quite commit to his own leap enough.

It's probably a deadly combination of all these little misjudgements within a second or two. And you could still say that he did the bare minimum to have cleared the danger, all else being equal – but for Maradona leading with the arm, which of course comes up between Shilton's hands and gives him those crucial few inches' added reach at the moment of contact.

[lambers]

I watched the full 1986 Quarter Final on iPlayer, first time that I've (consciously) watched an entire match of Diego's, being as I was too young to remember anything about the 86 or 90 world cups, and neither do I recollect watching either of his games in 94.

He really does stand out as an amazing dribbler. "That goal" always seemed like it was coming, there were numerous occasions before hand where he was threatening to do the same thing but was thwarted by a desperate tackle – a few fair but most of them fouls.

Outside of the goals, the one thing that jumped out at me was the corner flag incident. For those who don't know, whilst preparing to take a corner, Diego gets frustrated with the assembled photographers and vents this by kicking the corner flagpole. This not only separates pole from ground, but flag from pole. The linesman, rightly, requests that Diego replaces the flag which, by Diego's face, appears to be a great injustice, but he complies by stabbing the pole into the ground. The linesman then requests that the flag is also put back on, which gets an "Are you kidding me?" look, but by the time Diego is sliding the flag back on he is suddenly laughing and joking with the linesman.

I may be reading too much into things, but that struck me as a possible parable.

[Satchmo Distel]

Bobby Robson's book on the tournament claimed that England were being gentlemanly by not hacking him down in that second goal run, forgetting that they'd been hacking him down throughout the half.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I watched the full 1986 Quarter Final on iPlayer, first time that I've (consciously) watched an entire match of Diego's, being as I was too young to remember anything about the 86 or 90 world cups, and neither do I recollect watching either of his games in 94.

He really does stand out as an amazing dribbler. "That goal" always seemed like it was coming, there were numerous occasions before hand where he was threatening to do the same thing but was thwarted by a desperate tackle – a few fair but most of them fouls.

Outside of the goals, the one thing that jumped out at me was the corner flag incident. For those who don't know, whilst preparing to take a corner, Diego gets frustrated with the assembled photographers and vents this by kicking the corner flagpole. This not only separates pole from ground, but flag from pole. The linesman, rightly, requests that Diego replaces the flag which, by Diego's face, appears to be a great injustice, but he complies by stabbing the pole into the ground. The linesman then requests that the flag is also put back on, which gets an "Are you kidding me?" look, but by the time Diego is sliding the flag back on he is suddenly laughing and joking with the linesman.

I may be reading too much into things, but that struck me as a possible parable.

That despite the life crushing effects of being told he was a living god from the age of eight, having had no-one say no to him since he was a child, and adding a raging coke addiction, there still remained some vestiges of the person he might otherwise have been?

The way we treat young people who are good at sport is an indictment of global society as a whole. It happens everywhere, and maradona is an ultra extreme example. BT sport were showing documentaries about the career of Mike Tyson in the lead up to that farce last night. The parallels are clear and strong. the 80's were big on this thing. It'd throw in Gazza and if you expand it beyond the sporting arena, Michael Jackson. People came for the five or six years of brilliance, and stayed to rubberneck at the 30 years of distress and self destructive spiral.

[ursus arctos]

https://twitter.com/danroan/status/1333105139696230402

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

https://twitter.com/danroan/status/1333105139696230402

hmm, the michael Jackson parallel seems strong.

[Gangster Octopus]

And Prince.

[Satchmo Distel]

I don't think comparing Maradona to Tyson is helpful. I can't see how Diego was a sociopath in the manner that Tyson, a convicted rapist, clearly is, and although Italian football had a somewhat sick culture in his era, it was nothing like the sewer of heavyweight boxing.

I can see how Tyson was ripped off by Don King et al and Maradona was chewed up and spat out by the Naples power structure (which came out of the documentary looking like a bunch of scumbags), but I think:

1) Maradona gave greater pleasure in the nature of his skill, much more like Muhammad Ali or Sugar Ray Leonard than Tyson.
2) He was clearly capable of love, even if only to his mother (and maybe his kids and girlfriends, from time to time)
3) He contributed his absolute best years to a team (club and national) not just individual glory
4) He was a victim of violence more often than he was a giver out of violence, which is not to say he was never guilty of the latter.
5) He actually improved after the age of 23, after a career-threatening injury.

I can see the boy within the man with Diego, and the innocence that was corrupted, but Tyson seems never to have learned basic human empathy in any form and was damaged beyond repair long before he reached adulthood.

Michael Jackson was made into a freak by an extremely abusive father and was a manchild who possibly (or possibly not) became a paedophile. I don't see those issues with Diego.