The Redbirds

[Ray de Galles]

The Redbirds

Mid-seventies away kit.

[My Name Is Ian]

The Redbirds

There's an artists rendition of the Newport kit here:

http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/Newport_County/Newport_County.htm

I've seen things written before about how red gives some sort of competitive edge to teams for reasons of varying unconvincingness, which can only make you wonder why more clubs haven't tried it if it works so brilliantly. The majority of clubs that I can think of off the top of my head that have radically changed their kits have, for whatever, reason, changed them to white with flashes of their original colours, and most of them have changed back at some point.

The most change-crazy Football League club that a cursory look throws up is Southport, who seems to have gone from black and white stripes to green and white hoops, to gold and black and then yellow and blue between 1939 and 1971.

http://www.historicalkits.co.uk/Southport/Southport.htm

[Bored Of Education]

The Redbirds

I spent a genuinely enjoyable lunchbreak going
through the historicalkits site. I have
listed below the teams that have changed colours since WWII. Where teams have just added or taken away strips a la Brighton, for instance, I have put (ish). Where they have had one or two major changes like Leeds or they are serial pisser abouters, like Palace, they are in the main list. You may disagree with the (ish)ness or otherwise of certain kits but it is not an exact study and, if you do, you have more time to spare than I

Not one kit change has coincided with a name change of an existing club as far as I can see unless you count Franchise, which I don't. However, that doesn't mean that City supporters should be complacent. Branding was almost non-existent as anything more than a cursory practice until the last 30 ish years.

Bournemouth (ish)
Bradford
Brighton (ish)
Canbridge (ish)
Coventry
Palace
Doncaster
Leeds
Orient
Luton
Mansfield
Millwall (couple of seasons in white kit)
Northampton
Port Vale
Reading
Rochdale
Scunthorpe
Shrewsbury
Stockport
Torquay
Tranmere (5 seasons in blue!)
Wallsall
Wigan (ish)
Yeovil
York
Wrexham actually played in blue for many season until 1939.

What I have noticed is that loads of teams started with really nice green kits and should have stuck with them rather than changing to something more
unoriginal

[Ray de Galles]

The Redbirds

Bored of Education wrote:

I have to say that the FL involvement has only been mentioned in the last couple of hours and I am surprised as to what their actions could have been if they intended to do anything. Has there been a post-Franchise change in rules as to major changes in club colours/badge?

No, but the claim is that they are very embarrassed by this plan, tried to stop it but were powerless to do so and will attempt to instigate rules stopping it happening again.

I wonder if any such rule would prevent us changing back to blue in a few seasons when this daft experiment flops?

[Bored Of Education]

The Redbirds

Fucking hell, the FL feels embarrassment finally. If they had done something after Franchise, this might not be able to happen.

I wonder how they would police it. I know that teams have to register kit colours every season, would they not allow major changes at this stage? What about one-off changes? How would they judge whether a badge or colour change is enough

[ursus arctos]

The Redbirds

Presumably, it would be some kind of veto that they could exercise in their reasonable discretion.

There are already rules on the size and placement of sponsor logos, and there also has to be some kind of prohibition on introducing sponsored elements into a club badge.

[Greenlander]

The Redbirds

Bored of Education wrote:

What I have noticed is that loads of teams started with really nice green kits and should have stuck with them rather than changing to something more
unoriginal

No, no they shouldn't. No one else should wear green and I'm looking squarely at you Yeovil! Plymouth Argyle should stand alone as the sole wearers of green shirts in the league.

Incidently, we are also an -ish club. Though we have always had green as our principle colour we have had white shirts and striped shirts (both green and black and green and white). The mid-60's kit with the green band across the middle is fondly remembered and many often clamour for a return. I'm a fan of the 74/75 black and white stripes with the fancy 'PAFC' lettering, but a similar kit from the 90's led to play-off defeat, relegation and Peter Swan so will probably never be attempted again.

Sorry to sidetrack, but on the subject, Cardiff should not wear red. I'd be pissed off too.

[Bored Of Education]

The Redbirds

I did look at you but there wasn't enough sustained wearing of white for you to qualify and I had got a bit bored by the time I got to you.

One horrible by-product of all this is that I have spent more time on the sort of City message board zoos than I would like to but I can give you two quotes that show how low supporters can go

I'd suck Vincent off for a 100mill, red shirt seems the easier option

Call me an old whore but 100 million? I was thinking about 20-30 million. 100 million? That does change things somewhat

[JM Footzee]

The Redbirds

You're missing Watford there, BoE. Went from blue with white shorts to their present yellows shirts red/black shorts in 1959.

[Amor de Cosmos]

The Redbirds

Bored: off the top of my head you omitted Watford from your list.

There's no way of knowing the degree of proprietoriality supporters attach to their team colours. I'm not sure all clubs are attached to them equally, at QPR, hoops are sacred, blue somewhat less so. I'd imagine time and success are the main factors. Cardiff haven't changed their colours since 1908, you'd think that alone should be significant. They're also reinforced by the club nickname (how attached to that are supporters?) Sadly there are going to be a large (growing?) number, whose only question when money appears, is "do want you want me lying down or on my knees?" The best of luck to those Cardiff fans who aren't willing to kiss off their history in return for threats and promises.

edit: cross-post with Footzee

[Dickie Davies Eyes]

The Redbirds

Home - red sirts, black shorts, red socks.
Away - all blue.

Hopefully enough of a fuss will be kicked up to get these reversed but having read some posts on the messageboards I'm not TOO hopeful.

[Ray de Galles]

The Redbirds

It's not going to be reversed initially at least so I think it has to be a season of civil disobedience to make it not worth the hassle for the club.

[ursus arctos]

The Redbirds

God, this is awful.

At least it will be easy to identify the turncoats.

[NHH]

The Redbirds

Has the story of Austria Salzburg has been put out on the messageboards?

[Bored Of Education]

The Redbirds

Yes, quite a lot. Fair play, there are a lot of people on those message boards that are putting up arguments against this and getting called 'plastics' for their troubles. I know that Harry and I disagreed about the tone of the City mailing list that we frequent recently but, seriously, even at its worst, it is Hansard compared to some on those MBs, as illustrated by the quotes above.

Sorry about Watford. Must have missed it

[Houdi Elbow]

The Redbirds

Has anyone drawn their attention to the battle for second place in the 3rd Division? Yeah, yeah I know what colour Charlton play in.

More evidence that football has gone totally nuts.

[Jobi1]

The Redbirds

Bored of Education wrote:

Not one kit change has coincided with a name change of an existing club as far as I can see unless you count Franchise, which I don't. However, that doesn't mean that City supporters should be complacent. Branding was almost non-existent as anything more than a cursory practice until the last 30 ish years.

The traumatic last decade of our history began with a rebranding exercise by the late lunatic John Batchelor, which included changing our name semi-officially (don't think he could quite get it past one of either Companies House or the FL, I forget which) to Yorkcity Soccer Club - yes, really with no space between the 'York' and 'City' - merging us with his Touring Cars racing team, changing the badge to this...



...and the home kit to this...



So yes, based on our experience, Cardiff fans should not be complacent and fight for all it's worth on this one.

[NHH]

The Redbirds

I recall at the time that the other reason Batchelor said he did it was that if they could be YorkCity soccer club, they'd be more able to appeal as the 'old' york city soccer club to football fans in new york city.

[Bored Of Education]

The Redbirds

Yes, Job1, yours was a notable example, not least when you got rid of the great Y shirts (excluding that example)

Like I say, why do clubs all fall into unoriginal facsimiles of other kits?

[Ray de Galles]

The Redbirds

A bit too depressed and shocked to compose my thoughts much but below is a (slightly dry, businesslike as is this guy's style) report from the club's main message board of tonight's meeting between supporters groups and the club's patsys.

My concern is that this is a fait accompli and all the worthy petitions, protests, boycotts etc aren't going to change it next season at least. My thoughts turn more to forms of direct action and/ civil disobedience to make life as difficult as possible for the club, employees and ,yes, the team when this is driven through.

I am sure our trust will be in touch with Supporter's Direct but our supporters seem worryingly prone to bending over and taking it from autocratic snake oil merchants like Hammam and Tan.

Representing the football club during this evening's meeting at the Cardiff City Stadium were Chief Executive Alan Whiteley, Stadium Manager Wayne Nash, Director of Marketing Julian Jenkins and Media Manager Barrie McAuliffe.

The Bluebirds supporters present were Vince Alm, Mark Watkins and Rob Davies, who were representing the Cardiff City Supporters' Club, Tim Hartley, Tracey Marsh and Keith Morgan, who were representing the Cardiff City Supporters' Trust, Tony Jeffries and Dave Sugarman, who were representing the club's Away Travel Group, Mike Morris and Paul Evans, who were representing CCMB, Annis Abraham and Carl Curtis, who were representing AAMB, and Gwyn Davies, who was representing himself.

After a brief introduction from Julian Jenkins, Alan Whiteley opened the meeting by assuring those present that the changes which are going to take place at the club during the coming months are not being entered into lightly. He said an investment package from major shareholder Vincent Tan was vital to the club's continued progress and would provide it with long-term stability. The package, which was said to be worth a sum in the region of £100 million, will involve the following:

1) A large amount of existing debt being turned in equity.

2) The clearance of the historical debt to the Langston Corporation.

3) Significant changes to the club's internal infrastructure.

4) Major investment in new state-of-the-art training facilities.

5) An increase in the capacity of the Cardiff City Stadium to 35,000.

6) Significant investment in the playing squad in a bid to earn promotion to the Premier League.

One of the conditions that Vincent Tan has laid down in order for this investment package to proceed is a final settlement of the Langston loan notes debt. The Chief Executive reported that this matter has not yet been finalised, but added that he believes an agreement between the club and Langston representative Sam Hammam is close. He anticipated that a deal should be concluded in the very near future as it is in the interest of both parties to do so.

Another condition of the investment package is that the club will change its first-choice colours from blue to red from next season onwards. Therefore, the home kit for 2012/13 will be a red shirt with black trim, black shorts and red socks. The away kit will be blue. The club's badge will also be altered to incorporate a red dragon as opposed to a bluebird.

The change of club colours and badge will take place regardless of whether or not the rest of the investment package comes to fruition.

Contrary to rumours earlier in the day, the club's name will not be changed and the blue seats inside the Cardiff City Stadium will not be replaced by red seats before the start of next season. The stadium expansion is set to be completed before the start of the 2013/14 season, while the plans for a new training complex are already with the architects.

In terms of the club's historical debts, Alan Whiteley stated that an agreement with PMG Estates Ltd is already in place to repay the balance of the monies owed to them before the end of 2013, although the option to convert elements of that particular debt into equity has now expired. Meanwhile, the existing agreement with the Player Finance Fund regarding the monies owed to that company will remain in place and has not changed.

The settlement of the Langston debt will be a straight cash deal and will not involve any conversion of debt into equity. It is also anticipated that the deal will not involve the stadium naming rights.

None of the conversion of existing debts into equity will need to be ratified by the shareholders at an EGM as there is sufficient headroom in the previously-ratified agreement to cover the latest conversions.

A straw poll of the thirteen supporters present was conducted on the subject of the changes to the club's colours and badge. One was in favour; two were indifferent, while the remainder were opposed and in some cases very strongly opposed. However, it was acknowledged by all present that the views of those attending the meeting were not necessarily representative of the fanbase as a whole.
[Updated on: Tue, 08 May 2012 22:53]

Report message to a moderator

[Bored Of Education]

The Redbirds

My thoughts turn more to forms of direct action and/ civil disobedience to make life as difficult as possible for the club, employees and ,yes, the team when this is driven through.

I am not sure I can agree with this. LIke you, I have been on demonstrations that have been peaceful but then disrupted by a minority and it is that civil disobedience that has been reported by the press, entrenched views and polarised views further. To challenge this sort of thing, you have to form a consensus and you risk alienating people who may support you with too much extreme negative actions.

Not only that but the sort of people that you end up getting in bed with for such things is as bad as getting in bed with the Tans for £100 million. There has been talk already about "Slanty-eyed" "triads" "fucking off back to Malysia" around the message boards and I can only see it increasing. This is important in a football context but not to important to ally with racism and violent threats from known hooligans.

[Ray de Galles]

The Redbirds

Well, I don't agree (and can't see where the staggering leap from direct action to condoning racists comes from) and will make my own decisions and do whatever I deem necessary and appropriate.

Let's leave it at that.

[Bored Of Education]

The Redbirds

No, I am not suggesting that you are condoning racism nor, obviously, violence, threatened or real. What I am saying is that once you go down the route of direct action or civil disobedience, you have to be careful that you end up with fellow travellers who won't be intelligent or moral enough to know where a cut-off point should be. Especially, as I say, in a club that has its fair share of idiot hooligans.

Think carefully before you go down any route that may involve you with such idiots, directly or indirectly. As I say, such actions may even backfire on what you are actually trying to achieve by destroying any consensus that you are trying to build to effectively challenge this successfully.

A long term well-planned boycott of season tickets or merchandise is going to be much more effective and widely supported than any short-term knee-jerk reaction that will divide people opposed to this and scare of fence-sitters. As I remember, the Wimbledon lot were extremely considered in their approach to what happened with Franchise and, as a result, received a lot of support from a wide range of supporters and wider society. I can't remember any civil disobedience or direct action with them and they benefitted from this, I feel

[Ray de Galles]

The Redbirds

I don't need a debate with you about it.

[Crystal Staples]

The Redbirds

Harry Truscott wrote:

I have been wondering, Palace and Stockport have suffered this in the past too of course and there must be more.

Not a lot, as it's mostly accepted that our tradition, if we even have one, is to chop and change. Maybe it's the same with Palace. Sometimes we'll have more white than blue, sometimes there'll be more blue than white, and once every 12 years they give us stripes. The only major departure from anything that had gone before, and so the only thing comparable, is when blue disappeared completely back in the 50s:



I've never heard about any furore or protest about it, but I see that in 52/53 our average attendance fell from 12,000 to 8,000 in the same division. I also think this is true:

I think the culture of identification with a club's colours and iconography is possibly a lot stronger than it used to be.

Our change between 94/95 and 95/96 was so drastic that when the players ran out in a pre-season friendly I thought they were wearing a new away kit, but it was accepted without complaint. However, those were the days before messageboards. The 2009 change, tiny by comparison, seemed a lot harder for people to take.