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Bobby Charlton diagnosed with dementia

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    Bobby Charlton diagnosed with dementia

    https://www.theguardian.com/football...norma-confirms

    Very sad

    #2
    TBH I thought he must be bad when he couldn't attend Jack's funeral. Sad to hear.

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      #3
      Very sad story about an awesome footballer and nice guy but I hate it when journalists throw in dubious shit:

      widely considered to be England’s greatest ever footballer
      That would be the other Bobby, I'd have thought.

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        #4
        Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
        Very sad story about an awesome footballer and nice guy but I hate it when journalists throw in dubious shit:


        That would be the other Bobby, I'd have thought.
        If you add his club achievements to those for England, he has a decent claim to the title.

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          #5
          3 league titles and a European Cup? Not exactly Michael Carrick (if you're going down the "show us your medals" route) ... so clearly not any point in doing that.
          Last edited by Rogin the Armchair fan; 01-11-2020, 18:05.

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            #6
            Deepest sympathies and best wishes to him and his family; I did hear about this two or three years ago, which means it must have been fairly common knowledge so I wonder why they have chosen now to announce this? The death of Nobby Stiles, perhaps? Too painful to do so when Jack died, I suppose. The number of 1966 players who have suffered dementia is quite shocking.

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              #7
              Originally posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View Post
              3 league titles and a European Cup? Not exactly Michael Carrick (if you're going down the "show us your medals" route) ... so clearly not any point in doing that.
              I appreciate that you’re joking (at least I assume so), but in Charlton's day, league titles took a tad more ‘earning’ - different clubs lining up for the big one pretty much every season. Picking up three of them was no mean feat.

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                #8
                What Charlton(B) has particularly going for him in the 'England's Greatest Ever Footballer' stakes is he was the best attacking player in the one England team to have actually won something. So he was in some senses the star of that side. But in that squad alone Banks, Moore and Greaves would also have a strong claim on the overall crown.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Jah Womble View Post

                  I appreciate that you’re joking (at least I assume so), but in Charlton's day, league titles took a tad more ‘earning’ - different clubs lining up for the big one pretty much every season. Picking up three of them was no mean feat.
                  Absolutely (and I wasn't joking as much as sarkily pointing out to DR that medal counts are a silly measure). Liverpool fans who bleed red when you cut them flat out refuse to believe that Bill Shankly didn't win a trophy in 7 years between 1966 and 1973. It was a hell of a lot more competetive in those days. In fact up until about the 2000s.
                  Last edited by Rogin the Armchair fan; 01-11-2020, 23:05.

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                    #10
                    Indeed - those seven seasons saw a different champion every year. I started following football properly at the tail end of that sequence - spending a fair chunk of my growing up thinking that Derby County represented footballing titans.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by Janik View Post
                      What Charlton(B)...
                      Charlton (R), surely?

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                        #12
                        From European Cup win to relegation in six years couldn't happen today but it can't be entirely coincidental that Man U went down that path while Charlton was in decline (at least after Mexico 70). Today they'd just go out and buy another world-class attacking midfielder (or two), although they'd still need a manager good enough to maximize their effectiveness (i.e. a Klopp not a Solksjaer) if they wanted to win the league.

                        I think the league gradually got less competitive from 1986-2000. You can see this in massive signings (for the time): Liverpool bought Barnes and Beardsley; Man U bought Pallister and Keane; Arsenal bought Bergkamp. However, the financial doping of an entire squad didn't start until Chelsea and Man City this millennium, and the ability of other BRCs to keep rebuilding Top 6 strength is largely due to TV money that wasn't there until 20 years ago or so; four Champions League places only started in 1999-2000 IIRC, and England didn't get their 4th team in for two or three years because their coefficient was below the top 3.
                        Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 02-11-2020, 13:06.

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                          #13
                          That European Cup winning side was old or getting old. Both Alex Stepney and George Best said that there was a feeling of " well we've done it for Matt " instead of pushing on. Of course, when Busby retired, they made some bad managerial appointments as well.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                            From European Cup win to relegation in six years couldn't happen today but it can't be entirely coincidental that Man U went down that path while Charlton was in decline (at least after Mexico 70). Today they'd just go out and buy another world-class attacking midfielder (or two), although they'd still need a manager good enough to maximize their effectiveness (i.e. a Klopp not a Solksjaer) if they wanted to win the league.

                            I think the league gradually got less competitive from 1986-2000. You can see this in massive signings (for the time): Liverpool bought Barnes and Beardsley; Man U bought Pallister and Keane; Arsenal bought Bergkamp. However, the financial doping of an entire squad didn't start until Chelsea and Man City this millennium, and the ability of other BRCs to keep rebuilding Top 6 strength is largely due to TV money that wasn't there until 20 years ago or so; four Champions League places only started in 1999-2000 IIRC, and England didn't get their 4th team in for two or three years because their coefficient was below the top 3.
                            Yeah. Liverpool were probably the first English club to play with a "squad," rather than a "first team." That first glimmer of realisation dawned for me and other QPR supporters in 1976.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Amor de Cosmos View Post

                              Yeah. Liverpool were probably the first English club to play with a "squad," rather than a "first team." That first glimmer of realisation dawned for me and other QPR supporters in 1976.
                              People thought Bill Shankly was joking when he said that he wanted to build Liverpool up to the pont where the best two teams in the country were Liverpool, and Liverpool reserves. Man City probably weren't far off that three seasons ago.

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                                #16
                                Liverpool reserves won the Central League 14 times between 1969 and 1985. They only missed out in three seasons. This is an achievement which seems to have been forgotten.

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                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Aitch View Post

                                  Charlton (R), surely?
                                  Fair point.

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                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Jah Womble View Post
                                    Indeed - those seven seasons saw a different champion every year. I started following football properly at the tail end of that sequence - spending a fair chunk of my growing up thinking that Derby County represented footballing titans.
                                    I looked that up once. I believe seven different winners in a row has only happened three times in the history of the English league, and two of those almost completely overlap - the spell in the 60s/70s was topped and tailed by titles for Liverpool.* The only other time this has happened was right before, 1959 (Wolves) to 1965 (Man United) via Burnley, Spurs, Ipswich, Everton and Liverpool. As a wrinkle, the first four sides in that run have not won the title again since.
                                    * - either '66-'72, running Liverpool, Man United, Man City, Leeds, Everton, Arsenal, Derby, or '67-'73 with Man United, Man City, Leeds, Everton, Arsenal, Derby, Liverpool.

                                    There was a spell of six different titles winners in the early 50s from Portsmouth in 1950 to Chelsea in 1955, and IIRC (I can't be bothered to re-look it up at the moment) a run of 5 different clubs at one point between the wars. But those aside even a run of four different winners in four seasons is quite rare throughout the history of the English leauge. Though we have had one like that recently - Man United, Man City, Chelsea, Leicester from 2013-16. That is the only time entirely in the Premier League when it has happened, as the previous four in four seasons run includes some titles from the old Division 1: Liverpool, Arsenal, Leeds, Man United from 1990-93.


                                    On Derby being Footballing titans, they did win as many titles in that spell of the 60s/70s as Leeds United. Or pretty well anybody.
                                    Last edited by Janik; 02-11-2020, 22:18.

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                                      #19
                                      From the end of WW2 to Derby's second title in 1975, the title was shared around as follows

                                      5 - Man United
                                      4 - Liverpool
                                      3 - Arsenal, Wolves
                                      2 - Derby, Everton, Leeds, Portsmouth, Spurs
                                      1 - Burnley, Chelsea, Ipswich, Man City

                                      Given that no-one, Stanley Matthews aside, is going to be playing for 29 years, Bobby Charlton's three titles in the era is probably a top whack haul. I can imagine some Man United, Liverpool and Wolves players matched it. I doubt anyone surpassed it (temporaly Man United is possible as their 5 spanned 1952 to 1967, but... Munich).

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                                        #20
                                        Billy Wright captained Wolves to three titles and one FA Cup win, which is comparable. Though maybe slightly more so since it was done during the maximum wage era.

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                                          #21
                                          Clough and Taylor's achievement at two clubs seems even more extraordinary now than it did then given they had to finish above very good Liverpool sides, among others.

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                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Janik View Post
                                            On Derby being Footballing titans, they did win as many titles in that spell of the 60s/70s as Leeds United. Or pretty well anybody.
                                            Derby had a very good side (and manager) in 1972, no question of that. (1975, fair play to them and to Dave Mackay, but it was anyone's game that season.)

                                            But they can't really be compared to Leeds or (especially) Liverpool in terms of winning trophies.

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                                              #23
                                              Derby finished a very creditable 4th in 1976 in defence of their title, as well as losing a Cup semi-final to Man United and an incredible European Cup tie to Real Madrid only in extra time at the Bernabeu, after winning the first leg 4-1. That latter match came up on one of those lists of "biggest second leg turnarounds" after Liverpool beat Barca last year.

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                                                #24
                                                The league was already losing its competitive edge before 1986. Liverpool won it by 11 points in 1983, and that was despite only picking up two points from their last seven matches. Everton won it by thirteen points, two years later.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Did anyone catch the last 20 minutes of 606 just now? Christ that was sad. Two callers who were family carers for ex pros with dementia, complaining about PFA treatment. The final call was unbearable, well done to host callers for keeping it together to explain their situations, both of whom described as a nightmare.

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