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No More Harry - Premier League 2020/21

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    Originally posted by EIM View Post

    I think any right thinking football fan is hoping for a winning 97th minute Bruno Fernandes VAR penalty in just under two weeks time.
    Surely have the players brought back on after the final whistle, like the brighton game earlier.

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      They've lost their edge in attack for reasons that are not clear
      It's very clear. Without VVD and Gomez at the back, they've lost both of the people who start and recycle attacks. They've Also lost their best holding midfield player to cover at the back, meaning Henderson has to play deeper, losing his drive behind the front three.
      So they don't have the solidity and confidence or the passing ability that VVD gives or the pace and distribution of he and Gomez. Which means Robbo and TAA aren't able to drive on from the halfway line, so everything starts a little slower and deeper. So they play a lot more trying to walk the ball in, which teams have got wise to and flood the midfield and defence.
      The last 3 games I've watched and I've thought about 200 times "just have a dig from there" because they're not putting the keepers under pressure. It's too slow and too static.

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        With regard to the COVIDed games that need to be rescheduled, has the EPL found new dates or are they waiting to see who gets knocked out of the Cups?

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          The reason Liverpool aren't getting anything like the ridiculous number of decisions in the box that Man Utd are getting is because they're not moving fast enough either.
          Man Utd run at defenders. Then when they fall over, refs are far more likely to give it because it looks more convincing. Mane should have had a pen against Newcastle when the keeper grabbed his leg and held it and he should have had one tonight when he was pulled over from behind.
          But neither looked like what "fouls" look like from ref view because he was barely moving and it's easier to not give them when they go over slowly. VAR is no use because if it looks convincing enough in real time there's always an angle that can be used to back up the ref so it's not a "clear mistake."
          Liverpool need to do more running at defenders. That's how you get decisions.

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            Manchester United have had six Premier League penalties this season. Liverpool have had five. Leicester have had ten. Klopp needs to brew up and chill out.

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              Klopp spends 90 minutes on the touchline being a cunt so he's obviously going to be a cunt when interviewed straight after a loss or draw, although Mourinho out-cunted him the other week. We need to treat post-match interviews as clickbait shit.

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                Burnley, West Brom and West Ham have not been awarded a penalty yet this season. Other teams have all had at least two.

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                  Ironically I think Liverpool are also missing Jota, which I wouldn’t have expected to say when he signed.

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                    Hobbes on point about pressure on keepers. Forster's career looked all but over. He gets a late call up and Liverpool barely tested him.

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                      As for Man Utd, they have been considerably boosted by De Gea's return to form.

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                        Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                        Kloppo has gone full RAWK VARAnon. Not a good look.
                        How does everyone else seem to have understood what this post is about? What is RAWK VARAnon? Are you an angry parrot?

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                          I didn't get it either. Some kind of pun on VAR, but then I'm stuck.

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                            Originally posted by jwdd27 View Post
                            Burnley, West Brom and West Ham have not been awarded a penalty yet this season. Other teams have all had at least two.
                            To be fair it's only on a very rare occasion that West Brom actually make it in to their opponents penalty area.

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                              Originally posted by pebblethefish View Post

                              How does everyone else seem to have understood what this post is about? What is RAWK VARAnon? Are you an angry parrot?
                              RAWK is a Liverpool forum that is usually touted as the home of the frothing lunatic fringe of that club;s support (Red and white kop? maybe)
                              VARAnon is, I assume, TAB's own construction of people who think VAR is a conspiracy theory

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                                Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                                We need to treat post-match interviews as clickbait shit.
                                People aren't doing that already?

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                                  Originally posted by Sits View Post
                                  Ironically I think Liverpool are also missing Jota, which I wouldn’t have expected to say when he signed.
                                  Yeah definitely. I was saying this to my lads, he’s very adept at finding a little bit of space when teams drop deep.

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                                    Originally posted by Jah Womble View Post
                                    People aren't doing that already?
                                    Not sufficiently, although I also have been guilty of discussing them too much on here.

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                                      Originally posted by hobbes View Post
                                      The reason Liverpool aren't getting anything like the ridiculous number of decisions in the box that Man Utd are getting is because they're not moving fast enough either.
                                      Man Utd run at defenders. Then when they fall over, refs are far more likely to give it because it looks more convincing. Mane should have had a pen against Newcastle when the keeper grabbed his leg and held it and he should have had one tonight when he was pulled over from behind.
                                      But neither looked like what "fouls" look like from ref view because he was barely moving and it's easier to not give them when they go over slowly. VAR is no use because if it looks convincing enough in real time there's always an angle that can be used to back up the ref so it's not a "clear mistake."
                                      Liverpool need to do more running at defenders. That's how you get decisions.
                                      The first league season I remember following with any clarity is 87-88, and liverpool got a ridiculous number of penalties for the time. It was only years later when I got to see some of those actual games, that it became clear why this was. John Barnes would pick the ball up on the left wing, the right back would start to retreat. Barnes would accelerate straight at him, the defender would shit himself, slip on it and in the flailing mess of limbs, chop him down, barnes would fly halfway across the box, and that was a penalty, even in 1987-88. It was the eighties equivalent of Rashford picking the ball up on the halfway line and running straight at goal at top speed. You see the same thing with Jamie Vardy. Leicester get more penalties than man utd, and it's for precisely this reason. Defenders struggle to cope with players who can dribble into the box at nearly top sprinting speed. It's really really easy to get it wrong, and a slight error winds up looking like a carcrash.

                                      The other thing is that it helps to have more than one of these incidents in a game. Regardless what some over-excitable LFC fans might say, man utd don't immediately get every vague penalty that they appeal for. There was a really good shout for a handball by coady, in the lead up to the cavani goal that was ruled out for offside against Wolves. It was one of those situations where if the ref had given it, you'd understand why, but also you could see why he might not give it. It's best not to get too excited about it. And if there's a pro man utd refereeing conspiracy, I'm afraid it extends all the way to Uefa, coz united got four penalties in their six CL games.

                                      That mane incident against newcastle reminds me of shay given getting up in front of Ruud van Nistelrooy and bringing him down as he chased an inexplicable stooping-headed backpass from steve Staunton, as Ireland heroically beat the netherlands 1-0 in 2001. both were definitely penalties, but both get lost in the fog of Goal keeper protection. I thought that was a penalty tonight, but I think the ref decided that the player had barged him from the side in an effort to win the ball. I thought it was pretty puzzling, but the thing as you point out is that it happens so slowly. I mean he awarded a goal kick. I can see why VAR wouldn't overrule the ref, but I would have asked him to have another look. It wasn't quite a "You've got that one wrong mate," it was more an "Are you entirely sure?"

                                      Originally posted by hobbes View Post

                                      It's very clear. Without VVD and Gomez at the back, they've lost both of the people who start and recycle attacks. They've Also lost their best holding midfield player to cover at the back, meaning Henderson has to play deeper, losing his drive behind the front three.
                                      So they don't have the solidity and confidence or the passing ability that VVD gives or the pace and distribution of he and Gomez. Which means Robbo and TAA aren't able to drive on from the halfway line, so everything starts a little slower and deeper. So they play a lot more trying to walk the ball in, which teams have got wise to and flood the midfield and defence.
                                      The last 3 games I've watched and I've thought about 200 times "just have a dig from there" because they're not putting the keepers under pressure. It's too slow and too static.
                                      Yeah, people are too quick to blame the forwards in these situations, because they're the ones that people see not scoring the goals. For all the way that people talk about liverpool being a hard pressing, Rock and roll football team, they're actually much closer in concept and design to the controlled football of Man City, than the wild romantic chaos, that you saw in 2017-18. That was very exciting, but you don't get 97 and 99 points a season playing that way. You get to those figures by being a clockwork team. When that works properly it's amazing, and issues of partisan rivalry aside, there was something very aesthetically pleasing about watching the way all the liverpool players moved around in relation to each other.

                                      The thing about that is that it's a good way to consistently win narrow games, and turn draws into wins more often than not. Liverpool won 14 league games by a single goal last season, (Drawing 3 and losing one by a single goal) the impressive thing about liverpool is that the impact of the huge number of injuries isn't affecting them more, but the area where it appears. Liverpool scored at least 2 goals in 28 out of 38 games last season, and managed it in 14 of their first 16 games. After a lively start, they've failed to score at least twice in 6 of their last 10 league games.

                                      Actually the clockwork nature of the team also feeds into liverpool not getting that many penalties. You can see very clearly if you look at say the Crystal palace game that when liverpool get into the box, it's about passing the ball to the guy who isn't marked by anyone. It's difficult to look at the seven goals they scored against palace, and to see where the opportunity to give away a penalty would arise unless someone got a real rush of blood to the head.
                                      Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 05-01-2021, 12:24.

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                                        Originally posted by ad hoc View Post

                                        RAWK is a Liverpool forum that is usually touted as the home of the frothing lunatic fringe of that club;s support (Red and white kop? maybe)
                                        VARAnon is, I assume, TAB's own construction of people who think VAR is a conspiracy theory
                                        This. Like all one club message boards, most people are fine, it's just that in the absence of fans of other clubs to point and laugh, there is a tendency for the most excitable fans on the one club message board to gather in corners and form echo chambers. They have a man utd thread, which I look at from time to time, and a couple of weeks ago it's every man utd win is cheered on because it further cements solksjaer in the job. Then as the gap between the two clubs gradually closes, it switches to I can't believe that the media is talking this up as a title race, then as the gap falls to 3 points behind with a game in hand, the penalties thing starts to appear, until when they start to draw level because of scheduling, it switches to discussions about penalties, and now there's lads saying it's a refereeing stitch up. The games are happening so quickly at the moment that this whole process was speeded up like a timelapse photograph,

                                        That Klopp has jumped straight to the man utd would have got those penalties thing is not a good sign. His whole schtick is largely based around being above that sort of thing, because it's a distraction from his broader aims. This is the smart move and always pays off in the medium to long term, but you can see how frustrated he's becoming on the touchline. You weren't getting half as much rowing with the fourth official last season, when things were going super smoothly. Then again you weren't getting half as many shots of him standing on the line with his mouth open and a look on his face that suggested that his brain had jumped out of his head in disbelief. He needs to find a less visually arresting way of being dismayed.

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                                          Everyone knew that the world's biggest club and the world's richest club would both bob back up to the top again, like corpses from the bottom of a pond. It's just frustrating that Liverpool have let their brief dominance slip through their own fingers, rather than just being overwhelmed by the other two being on course for 90-plus point seasons again. Yes the injuries have buggered up the 'clockwork', but no team should enjoy 75% of possession and only create one decent scoring chance. In three matches running. That's a much more fundamental problem when all your main attacking players are still on the pitch.

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                                            Liverpool have had a run of three games without a win and it's been spoken about like it's full on crisis and the end of an era. It's like fucking Talksport on here sometimes.

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                                              I would have thought that a big part of their problem is that over the last 10 games man utd have been on course for a 99 point season. How long they can keep that up is open for question, but they've made up a lot of ground in a relatively short space of time. As for liverpool last night, they looked exhausted. More mentally than physically. Passing teams all kind of look the same when they're in trouble. The players get too far apart, they start to look for the killer pass to force the goal. So instead of taking seven passes to set up a chance where each has a high probability of success, they try to do it in four with a riskier pass. Then there's the flip side of that where they take far too many passes and the thrust of the attack is lost. Getting it spot on requires enormous expenditure of mental effort game after game. That sometimes comes off, but more usually it doesn't. This is a separate issue from the injury problems, which make it a bit worse.

                                              To be fair it's kind of inevitable for a team that is basically in its fourth year together. They've been doing this for quite a while now, and while Liverpool will likely have another strong season out of this group of players,next season. but then a lot of hard decisions will have to be made in a relatively short period of time. A lot of these players will be 30 at the end of next season. This isn't a mistake, it's the inevitable consequence of what seems to be the optimal team building strategy, but it is tricky to deal with.

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                                                Originally posted by Sean of the Shed View Post
                                                Liverpool have had a run of three games without a win and it's been spoken about like it's full on crisis and the end of an era. It's like fucking Talksport on here sometimes.
                                                Jordan henderson and fabinho were playing at centre half last night. Things have gone astray somewhere along the way.

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                                                  There also seems to be a reluctance to at least try and play Phillips and Rhys Williams together, even in cup games or Champions League dead rubbers.

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                                                    Originally posted by jwdd27 View Post
                                                    Burnley, West Brom and West Ham have not been awarded a penalty yet this season. Other teams have all had at least two.
                                                    Burnley have had 5 in 129 Premier League games.

                                                    129!

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