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Hollerbach's Geisterspielwurst - Bundesliga 20/21

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    I grow to like Pal Dardai more and more. He's from Pecs which is a beautiful city, kept Hertha up and now this :

    https://twitter.com/hsvnewsen/status/1393681554547879936?s=21

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      Originally posted by danielmak View Post
      Dortmund win and secure a CL spot. Brandt, my public enemy number one on this team, scores the third goal. Mainz only scored one goal late on a bullshit penalty because refs can't seem to read VAR in context (Hazard has a player pushing him and crawling up his back and yet Hazard is supposed to be able to jump and keep his arms in a "natural position). But I think that third goal was crucial because that penalty very easily could have been a second goal given Mainz's pressure in the second half and Munier's garbage play at the back, including keeping a ball in play that was head out for a goal kick, and then losing the ball to put Burki under pressure. Anyway, this was a good week for Dortmund.

      As was posted last week, I remain shocked that the Bundesliga allows contacts to be signed by players and coaches for the following season amidst the current season. I have a feeling Dortmund regrets the move they made with the coach but allowing these moves basically leads to teams coming undone.
      Yep, that was a shocking penalty call. Hazard had, like you say, an opponent all over his back, and that caused him to look away from the ball as it was coming down - then the ball hit him on the arm, which was barely outstretched. I wonder if these calls would even get reviewed if all the surrounding players didn't all appeal in unison and outrage whenever the ball hits the hand/arm - an unsporting but entirely foreseeable side-effect of a bullshit law change.

      Indeed, a good week for Dortmund after having started this whole prematurely announced coach-move shitshow. Don't expect much sympathy if Rose doesn't work out (though I'll be focusing all my evil thoughts on Huetter flopping at Gladbach). Really hope Terzic comes to Frankfurt, preferably without a fucking get-out clause in his contract.

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        Over in the 3. Liga …

        I mean Unterhaching have had the most diabolical season since I started watching them ten years ago and I'm somewhat grateful for the pandemic that meant I didn't have to see them. Why the coach is still there, God only knows.

        One of the few crumbs of comfort was this weekend, when Sechzig reduced their chances of getting in the playoff spot by amusingly drawing with already-relegated fellow Gruenwalder tenants Bayern II. It's going to go to the wire against third-place Ingolstadt, who can get third place by not losing to 1860. And if Inglostadt win and Rostock lose, then they'll secure second.

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          I know 1860 has been discussed in past Bundesliga threads but I'm trying to think of another big club that has fallen as far they have for as long as they have. Leeds might have been comparable but they were at least in the Championship playoffs a few years in a row before finally winning the league to earn promotion. Am I over-estimating 1860's size with my Leeds comparison? I had a long gap in terms of being able to see Bundesliga matches (from the 1970s via Soccer Made in Germany) to 1998/early 2000s when I could see Champions League games and then later got satellite TV. But 1860 were in the CL at that time.

          I assume there might be a French equivalent of 1860 but it seems like many of those clubs are more yo yo sides, whereas 1860 has not been anywhere near the top flight in a long time.

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            Leeds are "bigger" than Sechzig, which never had a national following (though were once "bigger" than Bayern in Munich.)

            Wolves, with no seasons in the top flight between 1982 and 2003 and a spell in the fourth tier, would be a closer comparison in my book, though Sechzig were never as successful as Wolves in their pomp, nor have they recovered as well.

            French and Italian clubs that experience that kind of decline rarely survive in the same form, with some experiencing multiple liquidations.

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              Originally posted by danielmak View Post
              I know 1860 has been discussed in past Bundesliga threads but I'm trying to think of another big club that has fallen as far they have for as long as they have.

              Sunderland for sure, Portsmouth and Bolton unless they make a dramatic recovery very soon

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                Blackpool were a successful club in the postwar period - not with a big following nationally but certainly with a decent profile due to Matthews and the famous Cup final - but then had a 40 year spell out of the top flight (and then returned only briefly).

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                  Originally posted by danielmak View Post
                  I know 1860 has been discussed in past Bundesliga threads but I'm trying to think of another big club that has fallen as far they have for as long as they have.
                  Rot-Weiss Essen?

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                    Or 1 FC Saarbrucken

                    Fortuna Duesseldorf also fell as far as the fourth tier before their recent revival (and, like 1860 and Wolves, had played in a European final).

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                      Yes, I think Sechzig-Bayern is comparable to Bolton-Manchester United nowadays (or maybe City-Utd before the oil money arrived). I suspect their natural place is in the middle of the 2. Bundesliga; they might habe been back there had their owner not 'stood up to the DfB' by refusing to pay the license for the 3. Liga.

                      Rot-Weiss Essen looked a shoe-in for promotion this season, after God knows how long in the regional leagues. However, their fate looks dependent on how Dortmund II finish the season.

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                        Zaragoza?

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                          Originally posted by Amor de Cosmos View Post


                          Sunderland for sure, Portsmouth and Bolton unless they make a dramatic recovery very soon
                          I would characterise all three clubs as ones who have had regular ups and downs through most of their history. They've had spells in the top flight but haven't been fixtures there and have also had regular visits to the third tier at least.

                          You would have to go back to the first half of the last century, way beyond most current football fans lifetimes, for Sunderland to be a real "big club". Their period as a much diminished force has now lasted as least as long as their era as a major name.
                          Last edited by Ray de Galles; 18-05-2021, 09:22.

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                            Though if we're going back as far as pre-WWII I would suggest Union Saint-Gilloise who were pretty dominant in Belgium then before falling to third tier semi-pro status by the eighties where they still were in the last decade.

                            I've only just noticed they've been promoted to the top flight this season for the first time in 48 years, backed by Brighton's owner. I wonder if their lovely ground has been upgraded enough for use in the top flight.
                            Last edited by Ray de Galles; 18-05-2021, 09:48.

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                              Who was the Sechzig fan that we used to have on here?

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                                abedi?

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                                  Could be.

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                                    I believe that he also had another name on here which escapes me

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                                      Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                      I believe that he also had another name on here which escapes me
                                      The Sour Kraut.

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                                        macochy europa

                                        Spelling may not be exact

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                                          Originally posted by Ray de Galles View Post

                                          I would characterise all three clubs as ones who have had regular ups and downs through most of their history. They've had spells in the top flight but haven't been fixtures there and have also had regular visits to the third tier at least.

                                          You would have to go back to the first half of the last century, way beyond most current football fans lifetimes, for Sunderland to be a real "big club". Their period as a much diminished force has now lasted as least as long as their era as a major name.
                                          Forest, perhaps?

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                                            Forest's spell at the top of English football and miraculous European success is an outlier in their history though. They've reverted to the norm since then.

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                                              Originally posted by Ray de Galles View Post
                                              Forest's spell at the top of English football and miraculous European success is an outlier in their history though. They've reverted to the norm since then.
                                              Finishing second in 1967 maybe even more of an outlier.

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                                                The decline of 1860 was pretty rapid, but it followed a rapid (and well-timed) rise. They were a mid-table team in the Oberliga Sued, which covered Bavaria, Baden-Wurttemberg and Hesse, and were relegated a couple of times in the '50s. But in the early 1960s they had a successful spell -- just in time to be included in the new Bundesliga in 1963, at the expense of Bayern. In 1965 they reached the Cup-Winners Cup final, won the Bundesliga title in 1966, and were runners-up in 1967. And that was it. They were relegated in 1970, and returned for a season in 1977 and two a few years later, getting relegated in 1982 with Rudi Voller in the side. After that they were forced-relegated to the third tier because the club was in its usual financial dire straits.

                                                1860 made a brief comeback in the early 2000s, even qualifying for the UEFA Cup, but that didn't last long either (in fact, it led to the hubris that made the club party to the construction of the Allianz Arena).

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                                                  Originally posted by Ray de Galles View Post
                                                  You would have to go back to the first half of the last century, way beyond most current football fans lifetimes, for Sunderland to be a real "big club". Their period as a much diminished force has now lasted as least as long as their era as a major name.
                                                  Sunderland and Bolton were solid top division for most of my my lifetime (which admittedly is probably longer than most current fans.) Potrsmouth admittedly are more football's dark ages.

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                                                    Probably a well-known story for many on here, but I enjoyed this account: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57087325

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