An alternative model?

[redkyle81]

Didn’t really know which category to put this under. Also a bit to lazy to see if this thread already exists. I haven’t been on the forum for a long time. So here goes.

Been thinking about this for the past few months and it’s obvious that the prevailing free market/globalized model of a lot of things ie supply chains and football is vulnerable to disruptions such as a pandemic.

Is there a more sane left alternative? What would it look like? Fan owned clubs with representatives on national and regional (UEFA) governing bodies?

Also been thinking that given that at least the first half of the coming season is unlikely to be played in front of fans that wider availability of streaming or free to air or some hybrid might actually be a way to get more interest in the levels below the PL. I live in the US and am going to make an effort to watch more FL matches. It’ll be hard to see all of any one clubs games as ESPN have the rights and seem to screen 4-5 matches a week only. Would be great to have a highlights show for the Football League here. Really enjoyed watching vintage ITV regional highlights as they would show matches across all divisions. It did seem as though Chelsea or Spurs were on quite a bit but that was in the London region.

Sorry this is a bit rambling, but given the lockdown this is really as close to a bar/pub discussion on this here in the NW of the US.

[EIM]

Speaking of Alternative Models, I once interviewed the founder of the Suicide Girls. She said it was about female empowerment and said any woman could be a Suicide Girl. Even my nan? Even your nan, she replied.

[Toby Gymshorts]

At the risk of sounding improper.....did she, then?

[EIM]

It's the sort of thing she would have done, but no. Anyway, it's about attitude, not nudity. Appaz.

[Toby Gymshorts]

So one believes.

[EIM]

Welcome to OTF, Kyle. I hope this answers your question.

[redkyle81]

Not really I guess from what I can remember I was taking a risk

[Ray de Galles]

Why did the nasty lady want EIM's nan to kill herself?

[EIM]

Not really I guess from what I can remember I was taking a risk

The thing is, right, as someone who spent 13 years supporting and involved with a fan owned club, I've no confidence that there is a left wing alternative. And that for a left wing alternative to occur, you'd need such societal changes to occur that you'd not need an alternative as the original would be regulated and organised properly.

The only left wing alternative is to opt out. Don't play their game. Either fuck off the sport entirely, or go and get involved at a smaller, democratic team. But democracy being what it is, and with the number of people not arsed about a left wing alternative always going to be greater than those who are, that soon goes the way of everything else.

The system is broken. The broader political system, and football. So you either fuck it off entirely, or you accept it and become an activist, organise, look after your own fully in the knowledge that no one else will. I feel like this about United and the Labour Party.

Others will disagree i suspect.

[EIM]

Sorry if that makes no sense. I was playing Warzone and kept getting interrupted by a deadly gas cloud moving in on my position while 149 highly trained soldiers tried to kill me. Very stressful time to be articulating my thoughts about this subject.

[redkyle81]

I guess since February/March this year I’ve started think about alternatives to current arrangements more because football like supply chains seem to need to flow constantly and any halt to the status quo causes problems. So I guess it’s FC United or A.F.C. Wimbledon on a larger parallel scale. But yet again the current structure is an out growth of a similar successful structure. So I guess just a fans owned non league? Idk.

[ursus arctos]

I'm afraid that EIM is right insofar as a regulatory framework does not impose some limits on what can be done to clubs.

While it is by no means perfect, I believe that the German model produces better fan culture and a more sustainable model, while still producing internationally competitive clubs and players.

That said, I can't see a path by which anything like it would be implemented in the US.

[Bored Of Education]

As a member of a community club, I am probably honour bound to champion such clubs but I have to be realistic and say that the best case scenario with these is to get a sizeable minority of clubs community owned. Also, community-owned clubs certainly aren't without their issues, possibly as many as traditionally owned clubs (however you may interpret that). As far as league reform is concerned, as Ursus points out, the German model is probably the most progressive efficiently operating top flight system.

If you are doing this as a thought experiment, I think Ray's nationalisation of football idea deserves an airing.

[EIM]

Football fans don't understand democracy and aren't prepared for the responsibility of it. Largely they want someone to idolise when it goes right, and blame when it goes wrong. The idea that they, as functioning parts of a democratic system are a) responsible for issues and b) able to effect change still seems weirdly alien, even at a club formed precisely for these reasons.

Democracy isn't just voting on a new kit, and being a preachy, sanctimonious bellend about having co-ownership of a football club. Though that's a large, great part of it, obv.

[3 Colours Red]

Democracy isn't just voting on a new kit, and being a preachy, sanctimonious bellend about having co-ownership of a football club. Though that's a large, great part of it, obv.

Sounds like one or two WST members I know. They're also Leave voters who believe everything they read on Facebook so draw your own conclusions.

[DCI Harry Batt]

Eric's is wrong, of course. And also right. That's capitalism for you. Of course you can't "win", in the ultimate sense, in a narrow part of society. That isn't to say that you can't do good things that are worthwhile in their own right as well as helping to build capacity more widely. Building that capacity is probably the best thing we can do. That starts with doing stuff locally, wherever you happen to be.

There was a point, a while back, where we could have made some tentative steps towards a mini-tournament on a regular basis among fan-owned clubs. We missed that opportunity, and that was a mistake.

You can win reforms, more widely, at times. Again, that's never going to be the ultimate victory, and those improvements aren't guaranteed to endure for all time. But just because these current shits are doing their best to kill the NHS, that doesn't mean it wasn't a victory when it was instituted.

People who want change are mostly way too "reasonable", though. Which is a shame. And not very effective, in the long run. Reasonableness is a big mistake.

[Patrick Thistle]

People who want change are mostly way too "reasonable", though. Which is a shame. And not very effective, in the long run. Reasonableness is a big mistake.

I am more of this mindset now. I see too many things about how we need to understand the other people and meet them halfway etc etc. Always from the liberal progressive end of the spectrum of course. The right don't care.

And if you meet halfway on racism or homphobia or sexism you still get a racist homophobic sexist system. It's the "legitimate concerns" or "respect my beliefs" bullshit all over again.

[EIM]

When the NWCL said they'd throw FC United out of the league if we sent a woman to their annual awards dinner, we laughed and said go on then. We knew we were right, we knew our power, and we knew where the bad PR would fall. But mostly we didn't give a fuck. Young, angry, arrogant upstarts.

15 years on, we play in yet another rip off of an 80s United shirt voted in by an aging fan base and any absolute bullshit handed down from the league isn't challenged as " those are the rules we signed up for". Meanwhile we pat ourselves on the back for Doing Things Differently.

The will to innovate and rebel has been superceded by the need to survive. The system eventually moulds you into what they want you to be. I'm not sure what the solution is.

[EIM]

I am more of this mindset now. I see too many things about how we need to understand the other people and meet them halfway etc etc. Always from the liberal progressive end of the spectrum of course. The right don't care.

And if you meet halfway on racism or homphobia or sexism you still get a racist homophobic sexist system. It's the "legitimate concerns" or "respect my beliefs" bullshit all over again.

It's funny, people keep talking about an acceptable way to protest, like the aim is to voice your issues without upsetting your oppressor. Same goes for Keir Starmer. It's not a good thing that Tories and right wing commentators think he's a good leader of the opposition, it's fucking disastrous.

[DCI Harry Batt]

If it goes wrong, do it again. What else is there? Giving up, I suppose.

[Patrick Thistle]

It's funny, people keep talking about an acceptable way to protest, like the aim is to voice your issues without upsetting your oppressor.

That's articulated exactly how I feel.

[Bored Of Education]

Football fans don't understand democracy and aren't prepared for the responsibility of it. Largely they want someone to idolise when it goes right, and blame when it goes wrong. The idea that they, as functioning parts of a democratic system are a) responsible for issues and b) able to effect change still seems weirdly alien, even at a club formed precisely for these reasons.

Man, isn't that the truth? Once we had become community-owned, I assumed we would be awash with people want to be on the Supporters Society Committee and, certainly, the Board of Directors. As it happened, we are still crying out for members for the former and the latter has been populated more - but not exclusively - by business people who you don't see on the terraces (although this could be due to the needs of our upcoming redevelopment). We have never been in a position where someone who has stood for a position has not been voted on. It is very rare to get votes against people and I am somewhat proud that I get the most of the very few there are. Indeed, after I was the only one to get votes against in the first season, I had to argue for the votes against to be recorded as it was thought it would embarrassing to have them minuted. I see it and them as an essential part of democracy.

I genuinely thought that, when we started the Football Working Group (where you have regular meetings with the Chairman of Football, the manager and the assistant manager) the bigger issue would fighting off loads of yahoos who thought they would be able to pick the team each week or choose which players we bought. However, I find it hard to get someone else to do it with me as I find it hard to meet during term time. Every AGM, I think we are going to get a great rush of people putting forward motions to do with the running of the club but, no, there is one if we are lucky and it is often me or other familiar faces who are putting forward motions not least to try and encourage people to get involved.

One of the stark signs that we still need to change the attitude of people is when the Supporters Liaison Officer asked us to co-sign a letter complaining about the woeful streaming of our recent play-off game and the first point we are asked to consider was how we would align with the Board. Not "How would we represent our members". I was reminded of this a touch with the Kier Starmer "Under New Management" poster.

Sorry, bit of a general rant there. I still think community ownership is the best model, it's just not a silver bullet, well, certainly not at the start.

Democracy isn't just voting on a new kit, and being a preachy, sanctimonious bellend about having co-ownership of a football club. Though that's a large, great part of it, obv.

Indeed, that's what I thought it was going to be about and that's what attracted me to it. That and being able to pick the team each week.

[elguapo4]

I have been a member of a supporter owned club since 1986, and by God,it can be very hard work.

I remember proudly going to my first AGM in 1986 as a 22 year old, 2 hours later, having heard dire prognostications from the top table, and loud arguments from the floor, I wondered what I let myself in for. All I can say is, just because people's hearts are in the right place, doesn't mean they don't make stupid and reckless decisions. I have gone through three major crises in my 34 years as a member, and the last one led to falling out with friends who were on the top table, which I've only recently made up with a couple of people. There are times when I feel like giving it up, and just become a season ticketer and go for enjoyment, but come November, I always pay up. I suppose I always will.

[My Name Is Ian]

I'm reasonably encouraged by Enfield Town, still. Crowds have held up okay despite a lengthy period in the same division, the supporters raised 10k during the lockdown to upgrade the floodlights at the Donkeydome, no major disasters that I'm aware of, financially-speaking.

But then they've been fortunate enough to avoid the "standard bearers" moniker that FC United and Wimbledon have. They're just a little football club wedged halfway down a system in which the odds aren't really in their favour. But they exist, and for a few years I was certain that there'd be a point at which they wouldn't any more, so I'll take that.

Their level and below seems to be where it seems to work and stick. I don't know - maybe knowing there's only two promotion places makes it feel less likely (and that one of these is the bonus lottery of play-offs) and that this dampens expectations. Perhaps it's knowing the players are part-time and seeing them in the bar afterwards.

There are Tamplin-shaped hole/exclusions to this, but on the whole money is for surviving at this level, rather than wildly spunking on players in the pursuit of the most underwhelming dreams imaginable. When I walk into a bar at a non-league game, I feel like I'm part of something. At bigger matches, I always feel more disconnected. I've not been to Wimbledon since they've been back in the League, so I don't know whether that place would have changed much since then.

But no, nothing's realistically going to change. Best hope would probably be Labour (because I can't imagine any of the others even considering it) making 50 plus 1 mandatory, but I don't know what their policies are. I doubt they've got one at the moment, but the Premier League would only have to whisper in their ear and it would vanish, even if they did.

And look at the fans, these days - fucking Newcastle fans stumping for the Saudi Arabian government because they want to buy them trophies. Jesus, that journalist they took a bone-saw to's fiance posted her open letter to the Premier League on Twitter and the responses to that were vile. And the thing is, they're no different to any other set of fans of anything approaching a biggish club.

[ursus arctos]

Some rare positive news

https://twitter.com/dulwichhamletfc/status/1287882343672197121