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Needing to lose to learn how to win

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    Needing to lose to learn how to win

    Last year, much was written about how Liverpool had learnt from their defeats to Seville and Real Madrid, as they almost clinically closed out the Champions League final against Spurs. If they win the title this year, the same point I'm sure will be made about how they lost out by a point last year to Man City and learnt that lesson. Is it a more common theme? I remember Docherty's Man United in 1977 and Arsenal in 1979 returning to Wembley to win Cup finals, the year after losing them. Alex Ferguson's first championship at Man United came a year after narrowly missing out (some might say choking) to Leeds. Blackburn, one forgets, could have won the title in 1994 before winning in 1995. Any others? West Germany, perhaps, winning in 1990 after losing to Argentina in 1986 - who would have been in both teams? Brehme, Voller and Matthaus?

    #2
    Of course the vast majority of football teams get a vast amount of education in this regard without it apparently paying off

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      #3
      Teams do indeed win after losing. And teams also lose after winning. And draw, they draw after winning. And losing. And drawing.

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        #4
        When a team wins, another team loses. So the losing team is really the winner.

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          #5
          What you are seeing here is that having been in high stress situations previously helps teams and individuals know how it will affect them, so be better prepared to cope second time around. Losing is pretty well incidental to this, it's simply the experience aspect that is the benefit.

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            #6
            Basically Liverpool didn't become the team they are because they lost those games. Winning would have been just as helpful. Its playing them that contributed.

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              #7
              Didn't work very well for Holland after 1974...

              I reckon Rogin just started this thread to talk about how much Liverpool are winning right now. In case we hadn't noticed.

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                #8
                I'm not sure that Liverpool 'clinically' closed out the ECL final against Spurs. Unless Rogin means in the sense that neither side showed up, but Liverpool had sufficient extra guile to find a goal from somewhere (and a huge stroke of fortune for the first).

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                  #9
                  How about those teams which suddenly stop winning? Like Millwall, who were top of the old Division 1 in December 1995 but ended up getting relegated. One of the common explanations is that such teams "get found out" or their squad is revealed as "too thin" but what other factors are involved?

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                    #10
                    West Germany lost in 82 & 86 so perhaps they weren't quick learners?

                    Ferguson used their last day defeat at Liverpool in 1992 as motivation, telling his players to remember how they were feeling while they were being taunted by Scousers for their failure to win the league.

                    Peter Reid did something similar when his Sunderland side lost their play off final on penalties.

                    I suspect sides dont really learn a great deal but it might help motivation a little and makes a good tale if you are ultimately successful later on.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by Sporting View Post
                      How about those teams which suddenly stop winning? Like Millwall, who were top of the old Division 1 in December 1995 but ended up getting relegated. One of the common explanations is that such teams "get found out" or their squad is revealed as "too thin" but what other factors are involved?

                      I presume you mean 1985.

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                        #12
                        I think there is something in this. Sometimes eams seem to use a defeat as motivation to move to the next level. Usually of course the losers don't or can't, but there are plenty of examples of great teams seeming to react to defeat by doubling their efforts to ensure it doesn't happen again. I'll shoehorn my club in here- Dundalk's defeat in the (early season) 2014 Setanta Cup final against Sligo, months after being pipped to the league title by St Pats is often cited as a huge motivation factor in getting Dundalk across the line for the first of 5 titles in 6 season in 2014. And it looks distinctly like Klopp's Liverpool decided that being very, very good last season wasn't good enough so they upped the ante. How long Liverpool can keep up the insane intensity remains to be seen, buI think it's a valid example of a club learning/taking motivation from defeat.

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission View Post


                          I presume you mean 1985.
                          1995-96 under Mick McCarthy, til he left in early Feb. From promotion certainities to relegation. I wa at a Millwall- Palace game during the freefall, not the friendliest atmosphere I've ever experienced

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by seand View Post

                            1995-96 under Mick McCarthy, til he left in early Feb. From promotion certainities to relegation. I wa at a Millwall- Palace game during the freefall, not the friendliest atmosphere I've ever experienced

                            Ah, OK. My bad. I always assume "old Division 1" to refer to the top flight, though even then 1985 would have been too early for Millwall's brief stay at that level.
                            Last edited by Nocturnal Submission; 03-02-2020, 11:17.

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                              #15
                              We don't know if Liverpool have learnt anything from last year because they didn't lose last year and they've not lost this year.

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                                #16
                                Every loser wins, once the dream begins.

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                                  #17
                                  This reminds me a little of The Day Today's Fur-Q: when he kills a man, it means that he respects him.

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                                    #18
                                    Or am I thinking of Shane Warne's "you've got to be prepared to lose in order to win." That never made much sense either when you thought about it.

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                                      #19
                                      [QUOTE=imp;n2247016

                                      I reckon Rogin just started this thread to talk about how much Liverpool are winning right now. In case we hadn't noticed.[/QUOTE]

                                      You "reckon" wrong then.
                                      Last edited by Rogin the Armchair fan; 03-02-2020, 16:58.

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                                        #20
                                        the horrible reality of liverpool fans winning the title rears its ugly head

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                                          #21
                                          I think the phrase listed in the topic make sense because it's rare that a team will go from worst to first. Usually the team gains momentum as they go from wherever they are in a table (worst, mid-table, top four) to first. In Liverpool's case, Klopp and the management have been building that side. They inherited a lot of talent from Rodgers' time but they have added a lot of important pieces. Of course, it's easy to see how things worked once they do work. I'm surprised that Spurs don't exist as a parallel example to Liverpool but obviously (retroactively) management made bad choices about who was bought and sold since they finished second in the league.

                                          I think one of the things that Liverpool learned from last year is that draws will kill a team. City lost more games than Liverpool but Liverpool had way too many draws to hold the lead (esp. when City had a game in hand). And as others have mentioned, getting deep into a final or going deep into a league season near the top of the table teaches a individual players and a team how to deal with the pressure and stress.

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                                            #22
                                            I've always found the "you need to lose to learn to win" thing rubbish really. Teams who lose big games, notably finals, are typically good sides with good players so it's little surprise that they return to a Final within the same season or a calendar year or two and win one. Sometimes perceived good teams lose big games.

                                            Teams also get to Finals and follow it up by being awful the following year. Off the top of my head, Swindon and Orient followed up a Play-Off Final defeat with relegation and Reading went from the Championship Play-Off Final to just about staving off relegation the following year.

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                                              #23
                                              I think the gap between World Cups is too long for this to apply.

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