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2020 Copa Libertadores / 2020 Copa Sudamericana

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    2020 Copa Libertadores / 2020 Copa Sudamericana

    The first qualifying round starts this week for the Libertadores. We've got some historically big clubs in the mix this week.

    The first round of the Sudamericana also starts soon.

    #2
    Not ignoring this Daniel. I'll be with you in a bit.

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      #3
      The first round started started on Tuesday. Carabobo (1) - Universitario (1). Not an exciting first half but the second half featured two goals and multiple scoring chances. The stadium was basically empty, but it's hard to expect anything different in Venezuela given the political-economic climate. Still, a 1-1 draw with an exciting second half will hopefully translate into an interesting second leg.

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        #4
        I know the answer is going to be "because CONMEBOL" but why do they put 28 out of 47 entrants straight in the groups, necessitating 3 qualifying rounds to whittle 19 down to 4, when if they put 27 out of 47 into the groups they would only need two qualifying rounds to whittle 20 down to 5?

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          #5
          At least Venezuela now seems to be able to host a floodlit game.

          Rogin's point is a very good one and I can't think of an answer other than the one he suggests.

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            #6
            I would only extend the "because it's COMMEBOL" to say that the top 8 (more or less) in every league seems to qualify for continental football. So perhaps this qualifying system is designed to keep more teams in the Libertadores from the top 4 of each league and then dumping the rest into the Sudamericana later in the year. But I have never looked closely at the math. I would add that when I compare Libertadores qualifying to UEFA CL qualifying, I much prefer the Libertadores (amazing, never thought I'd say a CONMEBOL decision was the right one) but that's selfishly motivated by the fact that I can watch every single Libertadores qualifier given the spacing of those games and that there are a lot less games. UEFA's system makes it impossible to watch many games (granted, there are way more countries but all narrowing to a similar sized tournament). And UEFA's qualifying goes on and on and on. So, I'm good with the current CONMEBOL system even if, as I wrote last season, I expect that the new year-long tournament makes this qualifying moot for most sides who will be nowhere to be found at the end when either Boca, River, Palmeiras, Flamengo, or Gremio are contesting the final.

            In other news, Barcelona has looked to be the best side, with some nice play in Uruguay. They beat Progreso 0-2 and should be in great shape for the return leg at home. San Jose were the victim of a poor penalty call when a player moved his hand toward his face to protect from getting smashed in the face by the ball. The best I could tell from the replays is that the ball didn't hit his hand and hit him the face. No VAR so the penalty was given and Guarani left 0-1 on the road. We'll see if the football gods balance that one out, but I doubt it. Guarani is the bigger club in terms of continental success in recent years so should be in good shape. But it should be 0-0.
            Last edited by danielmak; 25-01-2020, 03:45.

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              #7
              It is, at least, kind of Rogin to provide his own answer so that the rest of us don't need to bother.

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                #8
                In the same way as we all know that the Catalan version of Barcelona have been ever-present in European competitions since they began, I got to wondering which South American club holds the record for most appearances in their own international tournaments.
                Last edited by Sporting; 24-01-2020, 09:08.

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                  #9
                  Wiki says Penarol and Nacional have both been in the Libertadores 46 times (both 47 in 2020) but you'd need to add in Sudamericana appearances to split them. That is tricky because until recently I think teams from some assiciations entered both in the same season (actually entered both, not just dropping from one to the other).

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View Post
                    Wiki says Penarol and Nacional have both been in the Libertadores 46 times (both 47 in 2020) but you'd need to add in Sudamericana appearances to split them. That is tricky because until recently I think teams from some assiciations entered both in the same season (actually entered both, not just dropping from one to the other).
                    Nacional and Penarol are the equivalent of the old firm, but because co-efficient ratings don't function in the same way in CONMEBOL as UEFA, those two sides will always be in the mix. Scotland's co-efficient has limited Rangers' and Celtic's participation in the European Cup/Champions League. The Sudamericana has changed a lot since it started in 2002 but at various points both Uruguayan sides were probably in both tournaments. Boca and River had guaranteed slots in the Sudamericana for many years as well. I can't remember how many. But there have been many years in total where Boca or River weren't in either competition while Penarol and/or Nacional would have been guaranteed a spot in one of the tournaments. I'd be shocked if there was a year when one of those teams did not quality for one of those tournaments.

                    Then there's also the short-lived Mercosur (southern part of the continent)/Merconorte (norther part of the continent) that preceded the Sudamericana and Nacional/Penarol were in the Mercosur every year I assume. CONMEBOL was split geographically for those two tournaments.
                    Last edited by danielmak; 25-01-2020, 05:09.

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                      #11
                      This is a list of Nacional's matches in international competition.

                      https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:...al_de_Football

                      I haven't found a parallel list for Penarol, but the Nacional list demonstrates that they missed a number of editions of the Libertadores in the 60s, 70s and 80s (it also shows the Libertadores/Mercosur/Sudamericana doubles).

                      If the totals are right, Penarol must have as well. This year's is the 61st edition, so they will have each missed 13.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                        I haven't found a parallel list for Penarol, but the Nacional list demonstrates that they missed a number of editions of the Libertadores in the 60s, 70s and 80s (it also shows the Libertadores/Mercosur/Sudamericana doubles).

                        If the totals are right, Penarol must have as well. This year's is the 61st edition, so they will have each missed 13.
                        I would have to go back through wikipedia to see when the Libertadores switched away from a tournament composed of national champions only to a tournament that included sub-champions, but that system would have impacted the number of teams, obviously. Then the Libertadores expanded again to include either liguilla winners or domestic cup winners (e.g., Copa do Brasil), although there isn't a domestic cup in Uruguay. And I assume that some of that expansion either influenced or was influenced by the development of a semester system that yielded multiple champions in those leagues.



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                          #13
                          Second place teams first entered in 1965, the same year that the competition adopted the Libertadores name, having previously been the Copa Campeones de América

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                            #14
                            Universitario win 1-0 to advance to the second qualifying round. Not the most exciting match but it's good to see the Peruvians back in the mix. And while I feel bad for the Venezuelan fans, who really can use any positive distraction at this point, I assume that CONMEBOL execs aren't too disappointed. The constant rescheduling can't work well given the generally tight schedules of the clubs.

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                              #15
                              Went to Guarani (PAR) 4:0 San Jose (BOL) last night.

                              Now the first Copa Lib game I ever got to see live, on my Dish Network in 2001, was 12 de Octubre. Seeing that hand painted sign with the trees surrounding and almost reaching inside the small stadium stands of Itaguá, it just felt like I was seeing something so secret and mysterious.

                              It was this one in the back...


                              I've seen a bunch of games here in .py, but never did I really feel that same feeling of danger and mystery and darkness....until last night.

                              For reasons of which I guess they needed a certain number of seats of which the gorgeous Sol de America stadium has, or they were embarrassed of the ramshackled ramshackle Guarani stadium (of which you have to walk through a casino, and there's various stands of various shapes and sizes that makes one think it was the stadium version of that Johnny Cash song where he stole parts of various cars from the Detroit assembly line until he ended up with a 61, 62, 63, 64, 67 Cadillac, this one...

                              )

                              A tormenta blew through. And it's hilarious that storms are called tormentas because that's what these mo' fuggas are here. Straight up torment.

                              Trees down everywhere, having to get through rivers on the way there and home...and a giant 4-0 win with Bobadilla whom I last saw in Argentinos Juniors last year with Sam K and this amazing Colombian defender named Johan Romaña who is simply a destroyer of dreams and the reason Guarani has had 4 clean sheets in a row.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Great photos JV. Thanks for sharing that and the post.

                                                  As JV noted, Guarani totally dominated that second leg. Oddly we had a similar play in this match as the first: ball blasted at a defender whose hand protected his face. But not penalty this time.

                                                  In other news, Barcelona also advance. Progeso got one back but they were never in this match and Barcelona took care of business. So, all 3 of the bigger clubs advance.

                                                  Now we get some bigger clubs in Round 2, although the three that have advanced are certainly not minnows. Cerro Porteno is one of the opponents in the next round, so what's happening in Paraguay, JV, that both Gurani and Cerro Porteno are in the qualifying rounds. Historically, it's these two plus Olimpia and Libertad with Sol de America floating in from time to time as well as Nacional (PAR). Were these latter two further up the ladder and already into the group stage?

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