No More Sarri - Premier League 2019/20

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Focus. The instruction is "when in doubt, Keep playing until the referee blows his whistle." Whether that doubt is caused by the intricacies of var, or by an existential fear of foam mascots, keep playing until the ref indicates otherwise with a sharp blast on his whistle

Also assistant referees (got to start Calling them that or we're little better than richard keyes, or is it referee's assistants) raise their flags when they're pretty sure the player is offside. Referees can not see it or they are not sure and will have a chat with the assistant or they can see that he was onside.

This is not a new situation for players. And var has nothing to do with it

[Janik]

Except you keep telling everyone that play is now supposed to run on and VAR will check, so why are linesmen flagging offside anyway? They are redundant.

Because that is what the Premier League has told them to do, presumably for a similar logic to Kevin S - they want to know what the decision on the field would have been, for VAR to either confirm, overrule or say too close to change. The Champions League goes per your set-up, i.e. the linesman doesn't flag until the phase of play is over.

They should be redundant for offside in a VAR world of course. We have long known it is not humanly possible for one person to look in two places at the same time, which is what offside calls demand. Every linesman/assistant referee ever has been interpolating where the players 'must have been' based on what they see after they turn their heads. Human reaction time is 0.2 of a second, and we know from the speed players run they can cover metres in that period. The best linesman are those who can guesstimate most accurately. But even they can be caught out by a player moving from an unexpected position, hence f*ck ups like the Liverpool-Man City one posted up thread (when the lino will have looked to the defence in that case he will have seen a clean line, and therefore assumed they were all like that a fraction of a second before as well instead of one man being out of position three yards deeper). What is genuinely impossible to do properly in real time becomes achievable if time can be stopped, i.e. by a still photo or 3D map.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

This was the view I saw on the TV. Looks like a scissor tackle to me.

IYou can see the clip here It's not a scissors tackle though you have to sweep your foot around.. There's nothing wrong with that tackle. That's a pretty good example of what you're supposed to do. If you watch the video, you can see that wesley's right foot slips, and he's trying to regain his balance when Mee makes contact with it. That's why a pretty ordinary tackle wound up with such horrible consequences. [/URL]

This video (ignore the tweet) is basically the same situation. I'm not sure that's a free kick I mean either he decided he's going to break his leg with his bollocks, or the collision with after the clearance has caused him to turn in the tackle. and His non tackling leg does come out but the other one is trapped underneath him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtvGouzvYuA] This was the first thing that came up when I googled scissors tackle

And this is the second

[Sits]

Lots of “Greek fighting” in the last clip Berba. “Hold me back! Hold me back!” fighting.

[Felicity, I guess so]

Honestly - not sure. Liverpool won everything when I was growing up but I never had any negative feelings towards them. They were just very good and very successful. Then I left the country and soon afterwards Liverpool stopped winning stuff (apart from the occasional FA cup which I didn't see, and sort of like a weird outlying fluke that European Cup against Milan). I think it's somewhere between Liverpool winning everything and them winning very little (but still way more than nearly everyone else) and the whining entitlement that went with that switch that turned me off (Arsenal fans are worse but then I've always loathed Arsenal). The only place I encounter Liverpool fans is here honestly so it must have at least in part come on OTF (though not necessarily with current posters)

When I force myself to think logically then I like the city I like its politics I like the attitude I like the idea that it would mean something to people who deserve it I sort of quite like Klopp and the ownership model is only partially rubbish compared to their rivals. Plus of course I am deeply conflicted about the fact that I support a club who to some degree bears complicity for the tragic and criminal death of 96 supporters.

But there does seem to be a certain weirdness among Liverpool fans. The belief that they are somehow special and better than anyone else. That fucking weird iconography of the managers in heaven. I don't get that here and there at least seems to be some self awareness here, so perhaps the overriding answer is no.

In short and as I said above. Not sure

Ad hoc preparing to literally urinate all over Cilla’s shirt..?

[Patrick Thistle]

Focus. The instruction is "when in doubt, Keep playing until the referee blows his whistle." Whether that doubt is caused by the intricacies of var, or by an existential fear of foam mascots, keep playing until the ref indicates otherwise with a sharp blast on his whistle

Also assistant referees (got to start Calling them that or we're little better than richard keyes, or is it referee's assistants) raise their flags when they're pretty sure the player is offside. Referees can not see it or they are not sure and will have a chat with the assistant or they can see that he was onside.

This is not a new situation for players. And var has nothing to do with it

Last season if a flag went up that high up the pitch the ref would have blown before Shelvey finished. So it's not unreasonable for players to still be playing in the old mindset. (Especially when Shelvey looked offside for all the sorts of reasons outlined in above posts)

Having said that, my original point was that you can't stop the game now because if you stop it and a player is ruled onside then there is no way to adequately restart it to reflect the attacking advantage. (Same is always true of free kicks given for a foul on the attacker of course, which is why many happen - gives the defence time to regroup.) The Shelvey goal was a good example where if the ref had blown when the offence was indicated then VAR would have called an error. So my point is if refs are going to ignore the flags - as they've been instructed to - why flag at all? Pretty much every goal seems to get a VAR review now anyway. So it all seems redundant.

[Patrick Thistle]

IYou can see the clip here It's not a scissors tackle though you have to sweep your foot around.. There's nothing wrong with that tackle. That's a pretty good example of what you're supposed to do. If you watch the video, you can see that wesley's right foot slips, and he's trying to regain his balance when Mee makes contact with it. That's why a pretty ordinary tackle wound up with such horrible consequences. [/URL]

This video (ignore the tweet) is basically the same situation. I'm not sure that's a free kick I mean either he decided he's going to break his leg with his bollocks, or the collision with after the clearance has caused him to turn in the tackle. and His non tackling leg does come out but the other one is trapped underneath him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtvGouzvYuA] This was the first thing that came up when I googled scissors tackle

And this is the second

One leg sweeps the standing leg on the floor though on the follow through. It's not as obvious as the Marcelo assault but it's had a similar effect which is why I said it looks like a scissor tackle.

We can debate the minutiae of definitions. I still think it showed a disregard for another player's safety and the opponent got stretchered off.

[Glass Half Empty]

In so far as offside is concerned apart from the ability to rule out clear mistakes by assistant referees everything else to do with the current model in the PL for VAR is lessening the appeal of the game, particularly for actual spectators at the match. I for one will give up my season ticket next year if this does not change, I won’t be the only one.

The key problems as I see it are: the time taken to reach decisions, the dubious technical accuracy, the eroding of respect for match officials, the real time communication of the process in stadiums.

The time taken is for me the biggest annoyance, the process has to be made slicker, my suggestion would be that there is only one line drawn and that should be located on the tip of the last defenders goal side foot and that it should be sufficiently wide to build in a margin for measuring error. If the attackers goal side foot shows beyond this it’s off side otherwise it stands. The target should be that this process should not take more than 30 seconds. Even this length of time is a problem but probably a workable compromise.

The level of respect for match officials in football is by a distance the worst of any major sport, VAR is worsening this. Assistant referees dress up to look the part, wave their flags as they will but the official advice is to ignore them. Does no one else see a bigger problem with this? The authority of the match referee has been integral to the integrity of the game VA R challenges this as no other change has in the history of the game. I see no good coming from it.

If the process can be speeded up the stadium communication becomes less of an issue but it is clear that more needs to be tried than a crap message “VAR check in process”

I’ve tried to think through why I find the offside VAR thing such a problem that I would consider giving up such an important part of my life for the last 40 odd years many would see it as a ridiculous over reaction but essentially my position is this. I spend hundreds of hours and pounds following Sheffield United, (each home match is a 200 mile round trip), and I do so because of the dynamic of me and the crowd. The ridiculous joy, the outpouring of emotion, the bonkers emotion that comes from being a physically present for the drama of the game and of course scoring a goal is the essential core of this. I turn into a grinning idiot along with my friends and the thousands of others, at that moment we’re all the finest fellows in the world.

Now I’m no expert on the brain processes that are going on in my head during a match but I do know that at its best live football gives me a buzz, a blast of adrenaline and god knows what other chemicals in my brain that I don’t get in any other part of my life, I’m a junky for it, I think it’s the primary driver of why I go to matches. And VAR takes that away from me, not completely maybe but it certainly dulls it and perhaps worse it’s teaching my brain to react in a different way, instead of unfettered joy After a goal I’m feeling anxiety, concern, uncertainty as primary reactions. Is my brain telling me to avoid these emotions? Is that why I feel I’m falling out of love with the game?

The last three years or so as a Blades supporter have been astonishing and have confounded my comfortable cynicism which is why my current mindset is even more bewildering to me but prior to that I’ve put up with third world facilities, crap, overpriced food, endless travelling, queues, crushes, being treated like a criminal, assaulted by police, kicked by opposition fans, shit players, shit managers, shit owners, massive underachievement for a club of our potential etc. etc. but none of this has made me question my love of the game like VAR currently does. Some might say, Get a grip, VAR is only coming into effect in a very few instances in percentage terms but I don’t think this is true, the process is being applied to 100% of goals scored, regardless of the outcome it’s a constant destructive element on my mental well being at every single match.

Football has never been so available, I can watch it in the comfort of my home or at the pub with an excellent ale, I can watch it pretty much anywhere tbh at a fraction of the cost of match going. I can talk it through endlessly With friends or on social media if I choose but For me these ways of following the game have always been a pale imitation of going to the match but VAR sadly is changing that.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

I talked myself in and out of a potential answer last night when saying it should be all about where a player's feet were when someone said what about diving headers or overhead kicks? You could have forwards leaping at free kicks like Robin van Persie against Spain and if the rule was where was their heel where is that then measured if it's not on the pitch?

[Snake Plissken]

Nice visualisation of the growth in wages in the Premier League since 1993.

https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/1199598/

[Third rate Leszno]

's funny, really. The crowd at Anfield is chanting "We're going to win the league, we're going to win the league, and now you're going to believe us..." etc., whilst just about the only people around the world who haven't already mentally handed Liverpool the title (baring a few desperately straw clutching Manchester United fans) are some Liverpool supporters themselves!

Been avoiding this thread lately as I'm trying not to waste any more of my life reading about/debating VAR, but just a belated observation about this - I've not heard anyone at Anfield singing this, though they do sing "We're champions of the World" to the same tune.

It probably gets lost amongst the shit thrown at the internet by thousands or millions of gobby Liverpool fans with social media accounts, but there is genuine nervousness amongst the matchgoing Reds I know about not jinxing it by starting to crow too early - the Gerrard slip is still too raw, too recent. Obviously, everyone knows that it will take a fuck up of epic proportions to throw it away, but there'll be no premature triumphalism for a while yet.

[Antepli Ejderha]

Harry Kane needs surgery and is out until April, that's pretty much the season and makes the fourth place race fun. Which of the 17 also rans can limp over the line?

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Obviously, everyone knows that it will take a fuck up of epic proportions to throw it away, but there'll be no premature triumphalism for a while yet.

Liverpool still need 38 points from 18 games, assuming City do what they did last year and win every game from here. Failing to get 38 from 18 would hardly be a "fuck up of epic proportions", that in itself would be title-winning form in almost every previous season in history.

[ad hoc]

Sorry. It really would be a fuck up of epic proportions.

[Jah Womble]

Yep, it would, under current standards. Scoring just over two-thirds points might've been 'title-winning form' back in the 1970s-80s, but it really hasn't been for some time. But you guys can really stop fretting, it's been yours for a good while now.

Harry Kane needs surgery and is out until April, that's pretty much the season and makes the fourth place race fun. Which of the 17 also rans can limp over the line?

Ditto Sissoko - while a number of other players are also struggling.

This is what happens when you don't invest in players. Isn't it more 'fun' when clubs are able to field full-strength sides?

[Kevin S]

Thirded. You're in a position now where you can drop 15 points in the remaining games and would still be guaranteed to be champions. So far this season you've dropped two. If you don't win it from here it's basically a career-ending failure for the manager and any number of the players.

[Third rate Leszno]

Yeah, it would. Man City aren't going to win all their games, they'll finish with 86-88 points I reckon, so Liverpool need to win 10 of their last 18 with a couple of draws and that ought to be enough.

[Kevin S]

I mean you can't also ignore the fact that Liverpool are clearly the best team in the league either. It's not like we're looking at, say, Leicester in this position or Newcastle in the 'would love it' season and wondering if they can hold on to it. It's the European and World champions, who haven't lost a home game in over a year, or something silly.

So yeah, as far as the rest of us are concerned it's a done deal.

[tee rex]

Sorry. It really would be a fuck up of epic proportions.

I enjoy Schadenfreude as much as the next miserable sod, but if they failed to win this one it would be worse than if (when) they inevitably do win it. Sure, there's going to be yer standard triumphalism and fake fannery, but that will pass and next season we can move on to disliking whoever else ends up on top, assuming it's one of the usual suspects.

But Liverpool not winning it from here would be a story that will last the rest of our lives, especially if (as would seem essential for it to happen) it's accompanied by major bad luck. There's a reason Devon Lock is a name that lasts, and (insert after Googling) the winners are forgotten.

Leave room on the shelves for books worth reading, don't crowd them out with The Dream That Died, Trent's Tragic Tale, and Mersey Misery, and all the rest of the "insider accounts" ghost written by grateful hacks.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

For Fuck's sake stop feeding the Rogin Troll. The only way he isn't going to see Liverpool win the league is if he has a heart attack, steps in front of a bus, or cops a cruise missile or a terminal case of food poisoning on one of his cruises .Or and I would bear this in mind Rogin, You could get pushed in front of a train by another traveller who just can't handle the faux modesty.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Sure, there's going to be yer standard triumphalism and fake fannery, but that will pass and next season we can move on to disliking whoever else ends up on top, assuming it's one of the usual suspects.

Man living in new zealand not all that worried about imminent apocalypse shocker. Just because you can ride this one out in Peter Thiel's prepper compound doesn't mean that we can.

[pebblethefish]

Of course, if it does go wrong, is there any way we can make it Gerrard's fault again? Just for the comedy value, like.

[Simon G]

I've said for a few years that I'd love to see Liverpool win it just for the collective meltdown that United fans that I'm "friends" with on social media will have. If Liverpool ballsed it up from here the United gloating (again, just on my social media) would be more unbearable than the Liverpool fans should they win it.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I've said for a few years that I'd love to see Liverpool win it just for the collective meltdown that United fans that I'm "friends" with on social media will have. If Liverpool ballsed it up from here the United gloating (again, just on my social media) would be more unbearable than the Liverpool fans should they win it.

There's always one isn't there. "I just generally like to support the underdog, which is why I've just got a Supreme leader Snoke Back tattoo."

[Simon G]

I think it comes from going to school in Gloucestershire in the 90s and being the only kid in my year to support my local team by actually attending games - and constantly being derided for this by kids who probably couldn't find Manchester on the map, let alone actually make a trip to Old Trafford once in their lives.

Dealing with the glory supporters of those years was hell for a lower league fan like myself - and witnessing crying from all of them because other teams are being more successful has been fantastic over the last few years. To see Liverpool win the Premier League - the one thing (and again I stress this is only people that I interact with on social media) that they haven't won since football began in 1992 - and to witness their collective meltdown will make the vomit-inducing Liverpool fans pale into insignificance.