No More Sarri - Premier League 2019/20

[Sean of the Shed]

And the poems. Don't forget the fucking poems.

[Jah Womble]

If you mean John Toshack's efforts, my cousin had said book.

In the pantheon of 'bad Liverpool ideas', I think that that falls somewhere between The Anfield Rap and Dalglish's 'Suarez' t-shirts...

[tracteurgarcon]

It's better to let a player play on if unsure of offside and let them score or not than stop the play and find out they were onside because wtf do you do then? Let the team resume possession having lost the advantage and the defending team can regroup? That was the problem with the Sheffield United conceded goal a few weeks back. The linesman flagged so the United players stopped. Shelvey played on and was proven right. But the game should have stopped and the linesman's decision reviewed when he flagged. Technically an offence was flagged and the game should have stopped. But then what do you do when it turned out the lino was prematurely flagging?

Perhaps football needs to adopt the American Football method, where there can be a "flag on the play", the official actually throws their flag onto the field of play to signify that they think an offence has occurred but the play continues and then it's reviewed when play comes to a natural stop?

[Patrick Thistle]

To be fair to Liverpool fans (yes, I know, why would we do that?) the stakes are really high now. If their team fuck it up from this position their lives won't be worth living from the banterage.

[Snake Plissken]

Caught up on Match of the Day. That challenge by Ben Mee on Wesley was dirty and dangerous. I'm losing any underdog sympathy I had for Burnley.

Bollocks. Leaving aside the fact that it was reviewed by VAR and no Villa official complained about it at the time or post match, unless you want to outlaw tackling, what the hell is he supposed to do? He got the ball so cleanly, it bounced up off Wesleys chest and out for a goal kick. The crowd initially thought Wesley was down timewasting because the ball had smacked him in the face. What was unfortunate was the contact happened at the point Wesleys right foot was completely planted.

Mrs Thistle watching Jack Grealish being interviewed: "Oh my God! Look at his hair!"
Me: "Yes, he's the one you said looked like a macaroni penguin."
Her: "Aw, yes, that's cute."
Me: "Wait, so you like him now?"
Her: "Weeeeeeeeelllll, penguins are cool..."

When Grealish throws his tantrums, the hair really exaggerates the head wobbling.

[Patrick Thistle]

This was the view I saw on the TV. Looks like a scissor tackle to me.

[Lang Spoon]

Fuckin hell.

[Snake Plissken]

The ball has already been touched by Mee - ON THE GROUND - and Wesley's chest at that point - it's a still taken *after* the tackle.

[Patrick Thistle]

OK. I retract my statement about the tackle.

That was an atrocious follow through by Ben Mee on Wesley.

[Antepli Ejderha]

Heaton and Wesley both out for the season. The former is a huge blow for Villa.

[Nocturnal Submission]

That's dreadful luck for Villa. I suppose that the one good thing is that they have nearly a month to fix things as best they can.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I'm not a luddite here who is against new technology, I like the idea of VAR in principle. I think you are having an argument with a luddite straw man. It just needs to be implemented correctly and its margin of error quantitatively defined.

In the text from that source you quote:

Also, cameras used at football matches are not of sufficient quality to be completely accurate, with some claims there should be a margin of error of around 13cm.

So if a ref says something is onside, but a VAR review uses a technology with a margin of error of 13 cm to say that no, the player was in fact 4 cm offside, then you can surely see how dumb that is?

But the margin for error is different for each incident, because it is dependent on the relative speed of the forward and the defender. (i.e. how fast are the two lines moving relative to each other) That figure given the other day was for Raheem sterling moving at 35km past a static defence. 13 cm, based on that calculations would imply that both players were running quite fast in opposite directions at a relative speed of over 50 kmph. which is possible, but rare, and That is not a situation where a human even has an error bar. THe margin of error for something like Teemu Pukki's 'goal' against spurs would be very small indeed because they're both moving the same direction at roughly the same speed. The margin of error for a situation like Dan Burn's 'goal' against bournemouth would be almost zero as he's barely moving. a lot of the really tight decisions that are disallowed are disallowed for this sort of thing.

This article lays out how VAR has effected the matches of each team. there have been about 200 premier league games so far, and VAR has over turned 63 decision (though overturned is a bit inaccurate given that decisions on tight offsides are not made, in order to be overturned)

It rules out a goal for offside every eight games on average. (it's difficult to tell what the change VAR has brought about here, because you don't know really how many of these would have just been flagged by a linesman under the old system) It overrules an offside flag every 30 games roughly, which given that you only raise your flag when you have no doubts gives an insight into just how hard it is to be a linesman. Seven times they've felt sure enough to flag and they've been wrong. It's an extremely difficult job.

Sorry for not following you better earlier, but there is something that I just can't grasp. What I want to know is why do think that VAR should be used to check the decision of the linesman, rather than look at the offsides directly? You've got two methods for measuring something directly. One of them is a lot more accurate than the other, but you're suggesting using the more accurate measure to check that the less accurate measure wasn't too far off, rather than measuring it directly, which you are doing every single time anyway. It's like a doctor putting their hand on a patient's forehead to see if they're running a temperature, and then using a thermometer to check not if the patient is running a temperature, but to see if their estimate was broadly acceptable. Why not just use the thermometer directly, since you're going to be using it anyway? There is at least one unnecessary step here. You're sacrificing accuracy, efficiency and simplicity to maintain the appearance that the linesman is still in charge, because that's what you're used to and comfortable with. You can see why this seems a bit conservative with a small c, and reactionary with a small r?

It's better to let a player play on if unsure of offside and let them score or not than stop the play and find out they were onside because wtf do you do then? Let the team resume possession having lost the advantage and the defending team can regroup? That was the problem with the Sheffield United conceded goal a few weeks back. The linesman flagged so the United players stopped. Shelvey played on and was proven right. But the game should have stopped and the linesman's decision reviewed when he flagged. Technically an offence was flagged and the game should have stopped. But then what do you do when it turned out the lino was prematurely flagging?

aren't you supposed to play to the whistle? this scenario is not new. Referees have been ignoring or overruling linesmen for years.

[hobbes]

Imagine that. Ben Mee breaking someone's leg. The fact he played the ball first just makes it worse. It means he didn't need to go in as hard, but chose to. Given what he did to Gomez last year he must have known that following through with a scissor tackle is potentially dangerous, and yet he chose to do it anyway.
Fucking thug.

[hobbes]

The best thing about Liverpool winning the league by Christmas is that the rest of us can adjust and get used to it before we have to deal with the weird entitlement but faux pessimistic gloating thing from their fans kicks in

Do you honestly get any of that from any of the reds on here?
I'm genuinely nervous that we'll fuck it up and enjoying how well it's all going. It's a bizarre feeling really.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

The ball has already been touched by Mee - ON THE GROUND - and Wesley's chest at that point - it's a still taken *after* the tackle.

I'd be very interested to hear someone explain how that is supposed to be a foul. that's not even close to being a scissors tackle, and Mee is going no faster than Wesley. Wesley is just unlucky. just like andre Gomes was.

[Snake Plissken]

For what it's worth, this should show the tackle in question.

[Patrick Thistle]

aren't you supposed to play to the whistle? this scenario is not new. Referees have been ignoring or overruling linesmen for years.

Yes, you should play to the whistle but unless it's been communicated to players that the ref will.ignore all flags there's potential for confusion. The linesman should not have flagged and let VAR decide the call. Because when he flags the ref should stop the game. And then what do you do if the player is onside? How would you restore that?

[Patrick Thistle]

For what it's worth, this should show the tackle in question.

]

2.27 if anyone wants to draw their own conclusion and watch a player get their cruciate snapped in slow motion.

He slid through him in what looks to me like a "Take the man" challenge.

[Patrick Thistle]

I'd be very interested to hear someone explain how that is supposed to be a foul. that's not even close to being a scissors tackle, and Mee is going no faster than Wesley. Wesley is just unlucky. just like andre Gomes was.

Well for one thing he doesn't look "in control".

Unless I'm missing your joke.

[Amor de Cosmos]

Another sport but the same argument:

Save the outrage for something else. NFL officiating won’t get any better this weekend, or any time soon – because it can’t.

We shouldn’t have to remind people at this late date that nobody is perfect, but there you are. Besides, officials are a lot closer to that standard than the players and coaches. You can look it up.

So consider this a public-service announcement – or else a cry for help – for the people dressed up like zebras. Because they’re barred from speaking out in public and the league’s higher-ups are too tight-fisted and conflicted to do it themselves.

“I think the officiating community feels like it’s under attack,” said Dean Blandino, a Fox Sports rules analyst who was NFL vice-president of officiating from 2013-17.

“They were under intense scrutiny before. I know that firsthand. But with the advent of social media, all the other platforms and all the talking heads on TV – myself included – this season feels a little more intense.

“And frankly,” Blandino summed up, “I didn’t think it was possible.”

Referees know going in they’ll never get their due, but there’s some consolation. In the league’s 100th anniversary season, despite a glitzy ad campaign, game plans as detailed as an MRI and players so swift and strong they take your breath away, all anybody wants to talk about is officiating.

“Let’s say you volunteered to be a ref, because you think it’s noble or maybe just to help out in your kid’s league,” said Mike Pereira, another Fox rules analyst and one of Blandino’s predecessors as VP of officiating.

“On Day 1, you’re berated by parents from the sideline, or chased off the field, and then asking yourself, ‘Who needs this?’ " he sighed. “And people wonder why there’s a shortage of officials.”

Try thumbing through the NFL rule book some time to determine what constitutes a catch. After several controversial “was-it-or-wasn’t-it” calls – alternatively known as “the Dez Bryant play,” “the Calvin Johnson play” or “the Jesse James play” – the NFL’s competition committee overhauled the rule in 2017, but the debate still simmers.


That hardly stopped the league from dipping a toe into even-murkier waters this past off-season and tackling the even more-subjective question of what constitutes pass interference. The impetus was a blown call in the 2019 NFC championship game, when Rams cornerback Nickell Robey-Coleman mugged Saints receiver Tommylee Lewis before the ball arrived and got off scot-free.

Except the committee didn’t bother changing the wording of the pass interference rule; it simply tacked on a layer of instant replay. Unfortunately, no matter how much technology you insert between the two, so long as humans make the first decision and the last, it’s still a judgment call.

“Instant replay was already there when I got the job in 2001,” Pereira said, “and I was a big proponent. But now, I think it’s actually hurt the game.

“It was brought in to determine facts and locate the ball – what we called ‘lines, ground and planes.’ The league took one big step into judgment when it allowed replay to decide what’s a catch. Now there’s another, and that’s blown up, too.

“Maybe,” Pereira concluded, “we should have stopped with lines, ground and planes.”

Blandino agrees the latest brouhaha wasn’t hard to see coming.


“I hate to even reference that [NFC championship game] play, but the new rule seemed like a knee-jerk response, like they never got around to vetting the unintended consequences.”

For the first two-thirds of the season, coaches burned challenges, broadcast crews shrugged and fans raged when more pass interference calls weren’t forthcoming. Meanwhile, league officials – both on the field and in the replay booth – struggled to defend what was always going to be a judgment call. And not just once, but often twice, and sometimes differing judgments.

Then, even as the furor was dying down, Seawhawks tight end Jacob Hollister and 49ers linebacker Fred Warner got tangled up in the end zone in the final regular-season game – on the second-to-last-play – with the seeding order of the NFC hanging in the balance. It was exactly the kind of play the new rule was put in to decide.

But there was no call on the field and Al Riveron, the league’s third officiating chief in the past eight years, looked at it on a screen in New York and deemed it not worth a formal review. Twitter erupted again, and this time, even Hall of Fame coach and current NBC analyst Tony Dungy piled on.

“Still shaking my head at non-Pass Interference call in the last minute of the 49ers-Seahawks game. NFL Office put us through a season of inconsistent reversals but this is what the rule was supposed to fix-missed call that impacted playoff spots of 4 teams. Why have review??”

Why indeed?


“Here’s the funny thing,” Pereira said. “After all the fuss, if you go back and look at Week 17, I’d say it was the best week the officials had all season. Then along comes that next-to-last play.

Jim Litke, Globe and Mail

[Sporting]

The link only leads us to the front page of the paper, Amor.

On edit: thanks.

[ad hoc]

Do you honestly get any of that from any of the reds on here?
I'm genuinely nervous that we'll fuck it up and enjoying how well it's all going. It's a bizarre feeling really.

Honestly - not sure. Liverpool won everything when I was growing up but I never had any negative feelings towards them. They were just very good and very successful. Then I left the country and soon afterwards Liverpool stopped winning stuff (apart from the occasional FA cup which I didn't see, and sort of like a weird outlying fluke that European Cup against Milan). I think it's somewhere between Liverpool winning everything and them winning very little (but still way more than nearly everyone else) and the whining entitlement that went with that switch that turned me off (Arsenal fans are worse but then I've always loathed Arsenal). The only place I encounter Liverpool fans is here honestly so it must have at least in part come on OTF (though not necessarily with current posters)

When I force myself to think logically then I like the city I like its politics I like the attitude I like the idea that it would mean something to people who deserve it I sort of quite like Klopp and the ownership model is only partially rubbish compared to their rivals. Plus of course I am deeply conflicted about the fact that I support a club who to some degree bears complicity for the tragic and criminal death of 96 supporters.

But there does seem to be a certain weirdness among Liverpool fans. The belief that they are somehow special and better than anyone else. That fucking weird iconography of the managers in heaven. I don't get that here and there at least seems to be some self awareness here, so perhaps the overriding answer is no.

In short and as I said above. Not sure

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Yes, you should play to the whistle but unless it's been communicated to players that the ref will.ignore all flags there's potential for confusion. The linesman should not have flagged and let VAR decide the call. Because when he flags the ref should stop the game. And then what do you do if the player is onside? How would you restore that?

Right, but play to the whistle just means keep playing until the referee tells you stop. There are no circumstances when you should do anything else. It's advice that renders everything after the seventh word in your post redundant. If man utd did it, I would really not be impressed. It would be an annoyingly basic mistake to make.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Ad hoc, you could have just linked to this.

It's hard not to judge everyone involved in what happened there.

[Patrick Thistle]

Right, but play to the whistle just means keep playing until the referee tells you stop. There are no circumstances when you should do anything else. It's advice that renders everything after the seventh word in your post redundant. If man utd did it, I would really not be impressed. It would be an annoyingly basic mistake to make.

Except you keep telling everyone that play is now supposed to run on and VAR will check, so why are linesmen flagging offside anyway? They are redundant.