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No More Sarri - Premier League 2019/20

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    Guardiola being his usual gracious-in-defeat self, there.

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      Chaokoh, the Official Coconut Water Partner of Liverpool Football Club
      https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...300222303.html

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        Disappointed that once again we're talking about VAR rather than an exciting game between two sides who play some terrific attacking football (albeit aided by shonky defences at both ends).

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          Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
          VAR ruined the game in the sense of creating an expectation of fairness that it can't, or won't be allowed to, deliver.
          Indeed. There is no innate 'fairness' over the course of a game - somebody getting away with a handball ten minutes before a goal still influences the game; a throw-in given the wrong way, similarly, 'changes' the game. I think a few people who supported VAR, in a game that is full of judgement calls, didn't think through the full implications of how it might play out. I fear, though, we're lumbered with it. So I'm tilting at windmills here.

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            Some absolute numpty childish Man City fans wailing on 606 while I cooked tea. Including one who reckoned they were denied four clear penalties.

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              Did he have a Spanish accent?

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                So did anything interesting happen in the game?

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                  If you pause the footage at 5min 18secs Mane has possession of the ball and there are two other Liverpool attackers in the frame - 7 City players are defending (GK + 6). So, 7 v 3.

                  They half dealt with that attack (ball weakly cleared) but there was a second wave of Liverpool attackers arriving (one of which was Fabinho) and none of the other 4 City players had dropped far enough back to close them down. Aguero and Sterling and the two others had expended their energy protesting at the non award of the penalty and had only half heartedly jogged back.

                  The reason the goal was scored is that Man City did not defend Liverpools counter attack as a team - but as two seperate groups of 7 and 4 with a huge chasm in between which is why Fabinho had so much time and space on the ball.

                  You cant blame the goal on the refs non award of the penalty unless you think that players should argue with the ref when the ball is in open play rather than play to the whistle.

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                    Unless it's a stone cold penalty that wasn't given.

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                      Originally posted by Cesar Rodriguez View Post
                      If you pause the footage at 5min 18secs Mane has possession of the ball and there are two other Liverpool attackers in the frame - 7 City players are defending (GK + 6). So, 7 v 3.
                      What footage is this?

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                        So, who will be the next club to give Pep a blank cheque...

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                          Originally posted by Sporting View Post

                          What footage is this?
                          NBC Sports on youtube - the 5:18 shot is at 2:15 in the highlights.

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                            Originally posted by Cesar Rodriguez View Post
                            If you pause the footage at 5min 18secs Mane has possession of the ball and there are two other Liverpool attackers in the frame - 7 City players are defending (GK + 6). So, 7 v 3.

                            They half dealt with that attack (ball weakly cleared) but there was a second wave of Liverpool attackers arriving (one of which was Fabinho) and none of the other 4 City players had dropped far enough back to close them down. Aguero and Sterling and the two others had expended their energy protesting at the non award of the penalty and had only half heartedly jogged back.

                            The reason the goal was scored is that Man City did not defend Liverpools counter attack as a team - but as two seperate groups of 7 and 4 with a huge chasm in between which is why Fabinho had so much time and space on the ball.

                            You cant blame the goal on the refs non award of the penalty unless you think that players should argue with the ref when the ball is in open play rather than play to the whistle.
                            Yeah, it's like the Man City Forwards didn't understand the VAR rules. A serious breakdown in control by them. That's very rare. I've got to say that that was such a super weird game. Man city created enough good chances after they finally scored to win the game, but it just wasn't quite right. It was a bit desperate, it was a bit forced. If Man city are calm, i.e. they've scored the first goal, it looks very easy, and it's quite relaxed. They make every final pass knowing that if this one doesn't work out there'll be another one along in a minute. If they're chasing the game, the pass has to be perfect. This is a problem that besets every passing team, but when you're as systematic in your play as man city, the effect can be a bit more pronounced.

                            One thing that I would worry about if I were Guardiola, is the third goal, and what gundogan does. He needs to follow henderson, but he hands him over to the full back, and in the gap of time it takes for the defender to get across, henderson crosses the ball, unmolested. That little drop off by gundogan is all you need, and you'd never see that last season. That was the sort of thing you used to see in the season after man city used to win the league. The problem with playing the way that man city play is that if one or two of your players start to drop off then the whole thing can unravel very quickly.

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                              Originally posted by Jon View Post

                              Second one should have been saved too.
                              Sorry, meant to say the first one. The Fabinho long shot from distance which you would have expected the keeper to get a hand to.

                              It's a real shame that it's all about the VAR once again. This was the first Premier League game that I'd seen this season so I can only imagine the weekly VA-faRce that the Premier League has become.

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                                I watch so little Premier League that the defending champions Man City were able to field a player I've never heard of. Angeliño. Never come across him before.

                                Anyway, VAR is shit. I've thankfully not seen much of it before. So, the VAR at the World Cup, where the referee goes and looks again pitchside to confirm or overrule his own decision, that is dead and now decisions are imposed remotely? What a crock.

                                Manchester City had the better players, but Liverpool were the better team, and yes, were slightly favoured by VAR and Man City fielding an average goalkeeper.

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                                  Originally posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View Post

                                  The City player handballed it on its way to the Liverpool lad. So it would have been ruled out in any case.

                                  Do you not UNDERSTAND VAR?
                                  The decision not to award Manchester City a penalty was, according to the Professional Game Match Officials Board, because the appeal for handball against Trent Alexander-Arnold "did not meet the considerations for a deliberate handball".

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                                    Pep absolutely losing his shit with that second penalty appeal is hilarious.

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                                      It's already been memed and is, indeed, very funny.

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                                        Billy Corgan


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                                          Pep Guardiola

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                                            Originally posted by johnr View Post
                                            I think a few people who supported VAR, in a game that is full of judgement calls, didn't think through the full implications of how it might play out.
                                            Or we've seen a similar TV replay system in action for a few years in a very similarly constructed sport equally full of judgement calls on what might be a foul (this would be Hockey), where issues and problems are far less common and the vast majority of TV referrals are entirely non-controversial*. Football's protocols for using it are ridiculous. If Hockey can get it much closer to right than Football, that tells you it's the implementation that is the problem and not the basic idea.

                                            * - but not never as those reading the (Field) Hockey thread or reading the Irish Sports media in recent days will know!

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                                              Originally posted by Toby Gymshorts View Post
                                              It's already been memed and is, indeed, very funny.
                                              I hope somebody intercuts it with the dialogue from the bunker scene in Downfall to make it a meme crossover.

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                                                Originally posted by jwdd27 View Post
                                                the VAR at the World Cup, where the referee goes and looks again pitchside to confirm or overrule his own decision, that is dead and now decisions are imposed remotely? What a crock.
                                                It appears to be effectively so in England. However, pitchside monitors are reportedly available for refs to check, it's just that none in the Premier League has yet done so. This was exercising Sean Dyche after the recent Leicester-Burnley game - he said that refs tell both managers pre-game that a pitchside monitor is there and the ref might consult it, and not to approach him whilst he does so. Dyche openly wondered why they bother with that spiel if they are not going to look themselves at an incident like the Evans-Wood one (I disagree with lots of what Dyche said about that particular incident, but he was spot on with this part).

                                                The on-field ref still has the final say on any decision. It's just that they have all apparently chosen to go with their colleagues judgement instead. Or maybe they are scared to approach a touchline during a VAR delay?!?

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                                                  There is no innate 'fairness' over the course of a game - somebody getting away with a handball ten minutes before a goal still influences the game; a throw-in given the wrong way, similarly, 'changes' the game. I think a few people who supported VAR, in a game that is full of judgement calls, didn't think through the full implications of how it might play out. I fear, though, we're lumbered with it. So I'm tilting at windmills here.
                                                  This flicked a lightbulb in my head about why the way VAR is currently implemented is making me not watch top level football. Throughout the game, you have judgment calls, borderline fouls that don't quite make it, tough luck decisions. But then, when a goal is in the equation, they go back and forensically examine as much of the build up as possible to check nothing invalidates a goal. It's like all the game you're waiting for a release of the goal, but then when it happens, you suddenly have a much higher burden of proof to argue everything's OK. And that is illogical, and fundamentally unsatisfying.

                                                  These days, the way it is, you don't just need to score a goal, it needs to be a goal... beyond any reasonable doubt.

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                                                    You could say the same about taking a wicket in cricket, though. Particularly the bit about checking for the bowler over-stepping as well as stuff like did it pitch in line, was there an undetected tickle by the batsman, etc. They are looking for any reason not to give it out, just the same about the Football TV officials looking for any reason not to give a goal.

                                                    The key difference is the review isn't automatic - the batting or bowling team has to ask for it. And those reviews are reasonably precious; a player who 'wastes' a review casting around for a reason not to be out without decent grounds for thinking that might exist gets castigated for it. Particularly when a later teammate gets sawn off and can't do anything about it. Speculative reviews are therefore rare - the players are saving it for the time when they know the Umpire has dropped a clanger. But Football has a rod up it's arse about teams being seen to challenge a ref's decision and turning out to be right.

                                                    Consider how many overturned goals would likely have stood if a team had been asked "Do you want to review?" The Sheffield United one on Saturday for instance - there is no way the Spurs defence would have been sure there was an offside in real time. Where they even appealing for one? Or certain handball decisions, like the Leicester-Wolves one way back in the first game of the season. I was there for that match - the only complaints after Wolves 'scored' were internal disputes between the Leicester players about who had been at fault. No-one was suggesting to the ref that Wolves had handled the ball in the build up. If it had been up to Leicester to ask, they wouldn't have done so as none of their players thought there was any problem with the goal.

                                                    Keep the number of reviews low enough (I suggest one per side per match!) and the whole thing can work as people want it to with just egregious errors that only the ref thinks happened being checked and reversed.

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