Magpie v Magpie: Conference 2019-20

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

I should add, mention upthread of a poshness comparison with Cheltenham reminds me of a discussion on here a very long time ago in which ex-OTFer Tubby Isaacs (aka EFS) struggled to convince other posters that (I josh here with my exaggeration) Cheltenham could give the South Bronx a run for its money, edginess-wise. He was no doubt making sound points of the type made by others on this very thread, but it was funny.

[Patrick Thistle]

Thing is Cheltenham is always going to feel posh considering Gloucester is within walking distance.

[Simon G]

Walking distance? Sod walking that - I walked from Cheltenham to Churchdown (just over halfway to Gloucester) once and it took me a good couple of hours. I was shockingly hungover, I hasten to add.

[Gangster Octopus]

I'm off up to my mother's in Yorkshire this morning half way between Wetherby and York.

You're Old Mother Shipton's son?

[Me Old Flower]

Harrogate will play their first three home games at Doncaster's Keepmoat Stadium, according to the local press

[sw2borshch]

Our Gran was in service in Harrogate. It's definitely posher than Charltons where she was from.

[Uros Predic]

Harrogate will play their first three home games at Doncaster's Keepmoat Stadium, according to the local press

There goes the neighbourhood

[slackster]

The Regency Spa towns all have a similar vibe - Tunbridge Wells is my local. Rather lovely listed architecture at the centre, and posh Victorian villas surrounding that. There’s plenty of comfortably off folk, and work for the plebs taking care of their (our, if I’m honest) needs. Culturally they are often quite liberal and attract the chattering class, but generally return a one-nation Tory or LibDem type of MP (though I think Leamington is Labour at the mo).

Anyway, pleased for Harrogate. Silly they have to rip up the 3G pitch, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see that rule rescinded as more lower league FL clubs struggle to make ends meet.

[Big Boobs and FIRE!]

https://twitter.com/Groundtastic/status/1289954085878210563?s=19

[Nesta]

Great photo. Mind you, state of some football league grounds in 1979...

[Capybara]

In 1979, Harrogate Town finished third from bottom in the Yorkshire League Division Three. Immediately behind Sheffield Water Works.

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

Sheffield Water Works probably get better results if they team up with Sheffield Electric Company.

More seriously, I'm curious as to what the 1979 Yorkshire League D3 equated to in terms of tiers. It's difficult, even with the benefit of the FCHD site, to work it out for sure because there have been so many reorganisations and I don't know where there might be a complete picture of the history of the non-league pyramid structure.

But, starting from the fact that (I think) the Northern Counties East league system was Tiers 7 and 8 (i.e. non-league tiers 3 and 4) in the pre-1987 period (the Northern Premier being in only one tier (tier 6) prior to its 1987 expansion) , and trying to make deductions from the fact that HT joined the NCE in 1982 as founder members in their lower tier (Tier 8) on having been champions of Yorks Div 2, I'm guessing that Y2 would have been Tier 9 (Non league fifth tier) in 1979 and hence Y3 would have been Tier 10. But I think - I stand ready to be corrected - that broadly speaking the various reorgs over the last 40 years or so have tended to make the pyramid deeper and narrower than it used to be, so prior to those reorgs, whist a team might not have been so many tiers down, that actually represented more remoteness from the top than the same number of tiers would today because the pyramid used to be so much wider and hence promotion more difficult as more teams (from more leagues) in a given tier would have been competing for promotion to a league above. Also, I expect someone can tell me that promotion and relegation within the pyramid used to be a lot more arbitrary, a bit like the old world where promotion to the Football League used to require an election by its member clubs rather than being automatic on results.

Edit: based on my workings, partly speculative, and the FCHD records, I think that HT would have got its six promotions to move from Tier 10 (Yorks 3rd Div, 1979) to Tier 4 (League Two, next season) in 1981, 1982, 1986, 2002, 2018 and 2020.

[Capybara]

Yes, non league didn't really get its act together until the early- to mid-80s in terms of automatic promotion and relegation, but it's probably fair to say that in 1979 the route out of the Yorkshire League would be into the Northern Premier, but there were numerous other leagues in a similar position. But clearly Harrogate's ground in 1979 wouldn't have been suitable even for the lowest level of the NCEL today. No floodlights for starters. You've done the research so can probably tell me I'm wrong, but I think Harrogate Town have made it up the leagues with very few actual promotions and rather by being the right side of the line whenever reorganisations have taken place.

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

Thanks Capybara. Actually HT have had lots of *actual* promotions, according to the FCHD, link below - at least 5, arguably 6. Their involvement in reorgs seems to have been broadly tier-neutral.

1981- promotion Y3 to Y2 (finished 2nd in Yorks Div 3)
1982 - champions of their division Y2, so earned their place in the foundation of the NCEL
1986 - promotion (finished 3rd) NCE1 tp NCEP
2002 - promotion NPL1 to NPLP (finished 1st)
2018 - promotion Nat N to Nat P (finished 2nd, I assume play off involved)
2020 - promotion Nat P to L2 (finished 2nd, won play-off final)


http://fchd.info/HARROGAT.HTM

[Gangster Octopus]

Grrrr, now we're back up to three clubs in the league that I haven't seen us play...

Actually, thinking about it, unlike Tottenham Hotspur and Salford City, I've seen Harrogate Town. It was at Nuneaton's first ever league game on their new ground. It was the game where the Nuneaton fans I spoke to were convinced that Wealdstone's real name was Harrow And Wealdstone. Which is the name of a station.

Incidentally wingco fell into the same trap in an article for the mag...

[Me Old Flower]

In 1979, Harrogate Town finished third from bottom in the Yorkshire League Division Three. Immediately behind Sheffield Water Works.

Town also finished below Doncaster works team Pilkington Recreation that season.

[Third rate Leszno]

Dave Pace, like the poor, will always be with us

Although it seems that Droylsden won't.